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What say ye? Mike  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | ||
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Well, I think we have been through this before! The benchrest shooters generally (or at least used to) use the Culver. There is one other, but I can't remember the name. In general they don't even use the weight of powder, just "31 clicks". If it is windy, they might use 32 clicks for example. Their use is to determine the one most accurate load for that rifle and thats it ie. one powder, one load. The standard of accuracy is 1/10 of a grain. Some claim that they can use a different measure and still throw 1/10 grain. I tend to throw just below and trickle the rest on a scale. However I load for a bunch of different rifles using a bunch of different powders and abunch of different bullets ie. I do more load development than I do production. The only exception is my load for F class. Hope that helps. Peter. Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong; | |||
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As Peter said the "Culver" has been the standard in BR for years. Since his passing, the Culvers have dried up but, Neal Jones, Bruno,and Harrell's have been accepted as being as accurate. Note to Peter, while most BR shooters still count "Clicks" quite a few have gone back to weighing each charge and, doing so in air conditioned motor homes or, trailers. | |||
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Mike All of the Culver clones mentioned above are very accurate, but they are also very expensive. If you are looking for a more economical measure I'd suggest you try one of the Lee plastic ones. Yes, I said Lee plastic. Going up the line a little, the old RCBS is also good. The longer and smaller diameter volume chambers will give the most accurate throws with the larger grained powders, in my experience. One of the best was the very old Herter's but those are no longer available. You may find that your technique is a lot more important than the measure itself. JMHO Ray Arizona Mountains | |||
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I have a Neil Jones and it works great and is very consistant. When you tell me how to tell which one is the best, I will tell you the best one. The only easy day is yesterday! | |||
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MVA is building a modernized version of the Belding & Mull. Mine will hold .1gr. Rich DRSS Knowledge not shared is knowledge lost... | |||
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Who is MVA? Mike What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Montana Vintage Arms, Belgrade, MT. Rich DRSS Knowledge not shared is knowledge lost... | |||
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JDS Quick Measure... | |||
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dillion precision? range time is more important to me than every load being .1 grain or less. find the sweet spot for powder load when working them up, load toward the center of that and let em' fly! | |||
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Back in 1991 when the US Palma Team was getting it's .308 Win. ammo loaded on two Dillon 1050's (one resizing new case necks for uniformity and priming, the other to dump powder and seat bullets) we tested it for accuracy. The loads had a charge weight variance of IMR4895 of 3/10ths of a grain. The 20-shot test groups at 600 yards from a Win. 70 and Kreiger barrel went under 3 inches. New, virgin brass just neck uniformed. Bart B. | |||
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It looks like the Dillon 1050 would not work for any benchrest type shooting. I use a Bruno with a Jerry Hensler micrometer insert. Butch | |||
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Note those test groups were 20-shot ones. I forgot to mention that earlier so I edited that post. Some of the 5-shot clusters in those sub 3-inch 20-shot groups were about an inch. I would think 5 shots into an inch at 600 yards would be good enough for stool shooters. Especially when 5-shot groups that size at 600 are not made all the time; just often enough to set records. Bart B. | |||
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Bart, I believe the currant 5 shot 600 yard IBS record is .386 or thereabouts. .3 grain is not close enough for serious stool shooters. Not taking away anything from what you said. This is a different ballgame. Butch | |||
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Butch, I believe the current 5-shot, 600-yard IBS record is almost two and a half times larger than .386. According to the following link, it's .941. http://accurateshooter.wordpress.com/2008/04/17/davis-s...600-yard-ibs-record/ Bart B. | |||
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Bart, You are a little out of date. Try this link, it also has a picture: http://benchrest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51714&highlight=600+yard+record I believe the 1000 yard record is about 1.500" Butch | |||
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Quote: BTW it was range measured at .386" He was using Lapua brass, RL15 powder, 155 Gr Lapua bullets in a Remington action. | |||
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ireload2, What are you saying. I'm a pretty simple guy and can't figure it out. Butch | |||
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Butch, I agree with you. The web site says: "...using Danzac-coated Berger 105gr VLD bullets pushed by 33.5 grains of Varget and CCI 450s. His rifle had a 26″, 1:8.4″-twist Brux barrel, chambered for a no-turn 6 BRX, and a BAT RB/LP/RE action." I don't think that's the same as: " ...using Lapua brass, RL15 powder, 155 Gr Lapua bullets in a Remington action." Is there anyone out there that has better info? Bart B. | |||
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If you go to the link that I provided you will see that he broke the record that Bart is speaking of and it was with a much modified 308 Benchrest rifle. The previous record that Bart brought up was a 6BRX. It is a short case based off the BR brass. If you go to the link you will see a photo of the group that Sam shot with the 308 and you can cover it with a dime. Butch | |||
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Butch, I only put the quote up so that others could read it. It was not intended as a comment toward any one. The postings following the photo say it was a .308 with a 30 year old barrel. One of the postings was supposedly from a guy in the target pits at the range. | |||
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Ireload2, I didn't take it in a bad way, I just didn't understand it as posted. Butch | |||
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What gassed me is they said it was shot with a 30 year old barrel. | |||
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Well, that's good. I went to the link and that tiny group is surely hiding behind a dime. I missed it when I Googled my earlier search. Such is life. But (hopefully) we all know such things are more luck than skill. Every other group fired from that rifle with that ammo is larger. How much larger? Don't know. Benchresters don't often let the world know how their rifle performs all the time. The largest single group of a many-group aggregate is much larger than the smallest single group. I've seen 5 holes appear in 1/3rd of an inch at 600 yards, but doubt that rifle and ammo never shot that good again. That dime-covered IBS 600-yard record group will probably not be equalled again or even beaten. The odds are against it. Which is my basis for not getting too excited about a tiny few-shot group. If he had shot five or six of them in a row around half an inch and none went over 3/4ths of an inch, then I would get excited. I know of eight or nine consecutive 10-shot groups at 600 yards that ranged from about .700 inch to about 1.200 inch; not fired in any competition, just testing bullets. Some of the 5-consecutive-shot clusters were under .300 inch. The 80 to 90 shot composite went into about 1.5 inches. To me that composite is more exciting than five shots into just under .400 inch. It's a lot harder to do. Lake City Army Ammunition Plant has once in a great while put 5 consecutive holes in their 600 yard test targets well under half an inch. but the rest of the 200 plus rounds of 7.62mm NATO National Match ammo went into about 6 inches. There were a handfull of 5-shot clusters under an inch, too. If you shoot enough shots, five of 'em in a row will stack almost on top of each other .... simple statistics. So it happens. All that aside, it's sure nice to see those pipsqueak clusters appear once in a while, but this one will probably appear once in a very great while. Bart B. | |||
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Being a benchrest shooter myself, I'll disagree with Bart's statement that. benchresters don't tell us how their rifles shoot all of the time. I realize that much attention is given to small groups and, records for them are kept. However, it takes an aggregate to win a match! It has always seemed funny to me that the shooter, who gets the "small group" award, rarely wins the agg. Like the old saying goes,"He didn't shoot any real little ones. He just didn't shoot any real big ones." I think small groups should be rewarded with records and the small aggs should, and are, rewarded too. | |||
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Well then, how well does it shoot when not in a match? What's it shoot 20 to 30 consecutive shots into, group wise? Bart B. | |||
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Bart, what Eddie is saying is that one small group don't mean much, as are you. Winning an aggregate, grand aggregate or a two gun is what defines the accuracy of ones rifle and the ability of the shooter. An agg is 5 groups, grand is ten and a 2 gun is 20. It takes consistency to do well here. Just a couple weeks ago at the Super Shoot, the winning shooter finished with a .23XX two gun aggregate. Thats less than 1/4MOA for 10 groups at 100yds and 10 at 200yds. That some serious consistency. For another example, I shot a very small group at 300yds at the IBS 200/300 nationals last year to take small group honors for the match. Unfortunately, I also shot a pretty big group during that agg to drop me back to 6th place. But I tell ya', there was folks making special trips to the wailing wall to look at that one group. | |||
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Is that .23xx agg the average of all fired groups? Bart B. | |||
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"Is that .23XX agg the average of all fired groups?" The answer is yes! That is why I said that the Agg. determines the winner. No matter how much we all admire those screamer groups, the Agg. is the answer. | |||
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Yes, that's all 100 shots. Keep in mind that the groups at 200 are converted in MOA, so if you average .400" for each group, the agg would be .200. The numbers are rather staggering when you think about it. Every guy at the range has a story about that one day when he shot a tiny little group with his favorite rifle. To be competitive at Benchrest, the rifle has to be tuned perfectly and the shooter must master the conditions. This is NOT a point and shoot game. At this years Super Shoot, the wind blew in the area of 15-25mph for all four days. That'll push the bullet several inches at 200yds. If you pull the trigger just once in those 100 shots in a big let-up or push, your hopes of winning may be over. | |||
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There are decades of benchrest match results. All you have to do to get an idea of the accuracy capability is to look at the aggregate results of the top 25 competitors. | |||
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Back to accurate volumetric powder measures..... Years ago, I was given a tour of their facilities by the man who was testing 30 caliber 190-gr. hollow point match bullets during a regular production run. The test process was simple. He would grab 10 bullets as they came out of the pointing machine (at about 90 per minute, still coated with a thin film of sizing lanolin), take 'em to the loading room, then seat them in charged cases. Then off to the test range where they were fired about 20 to 30 seconds apart. The target would be measured and group size recorded for quality control. Then back to the pointing machine to get 10 more bullets and do it all again. These were fired from their heavy-barreled rail gun with a Hart barrel chambered with a standard SAAMI dimensioned reamer. He used .308 Win. WCC-58 full-length sized cases, Remington 9.5 primers and 42 grains of IMR4064 powder. Most of these 100-yard groups were in the low to mid-range ones but many were in the zeros. None were larger than .200-inch center to center. The average of all these dozens of targets was .132-inch. By the way, the cases were charged directly from an old Lyman 55 powder measure. Charge weights of IMR4064 had a spread of about 3/10ths of a grain. Do you really need very precise charge weights to shoot a bunch of screamers in a single day? Bart B. | |||
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Nobody shoots a bunch of screamers in a single day. Hell, it would be a feat to shoot ten of them in a single season. Yes, I do think you need consistent charge weights to shoot well, how consistent is the question. I say +/- a tenth of a grain from the intended throw is good enough as long as your charge is not on the ragged edge of the guns tune window. The smaller the case of course, the more an impact charge variance will be. | |||
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It makes a difference if his test range was an indoor tunnel. | |||
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Why? What's different between being indoors from outdoors that powder charge weight spread changes accuracy? Note their test range at that time was inside but a 200-yard long room about 20 feet wide and ceiling about 10 feet high. Not exactly a tunnel. Bart B. | |||
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Bart's post 15 years ago on powder charge accuracy In the quest for accuracy, there is not enough time for an individual to do controlled tests to quantify the effects of every conceivable variable. He is then left to pick and choose what to believe from the gun culture mythology. I am a believer in Bart's posts on newsgroups and now the www. In my quest for small groups, I have tried to read every post Bart ever made. I eventually got rifles more accurate than I can shoot, and I can shoot more accurately than wind will permit. I seem to be moving on to shooting animals and building rifles to give away. There are many possible paths to reach our goals. I might have reached my accuracy objectives without Bart, but I think he made it easier. | |||
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Don't tell me you don't understand that wind and air currents affect group sizes. On several occasions I have witnessed 2 world class small bore shooters culling lots of Eley ammunition on the club range specifically because the wind on the outdoor range helped them sort the match lots from the also ran practice lots. | |||
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I have a Neil Jones measure that is nearly twenty years old. It still holds half a tenth. Rich DRSS Knowledge not shared is knowledge lost... | |||
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Half a tenth with what powder and what do you verify it with? Certainly it will not do that with most extruded powders in charges larger than 30 grains. | |||
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It won't do it with ball powder either. I have several friends with them and they are like the other good ones .2-.3 grains. He may have meant .5 grain. Butch | |||
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