I’m fairly new to shooting, but I occasionally shoot clay pigeons, hunt whitetail (shotgun only in Ohio), plink with my .Marlin 22LR, and started buying handguns about five years ago. Back in the early 70’s I took a Riflery Class in College, shooting .22LR Anschutz Target Rifles, and loved it, but that was only a fifty foot indoor range…

I would like to take it to the next level, move up to a center fire rifle and shoot longer distances, but thought I should start conservative. I realize there is a lot to learn about shooting for distance, so before I buy an “extreme†rifle set up I'd better learn the basics. If I had to make a choice today, I would likely buy a Remington 700 SPS Varmint in .308 (a 700 XCR Tactical Long Range if I could afford it), but I haven’t got a clue about optics…

Your advice would be appreciated. What should I look for in a rifle, and are some better than others “out of the box?†I doubt I’ll have deep enough pockets for much custom work, except for some minor things. As far as optics, I intend to start at 200 to 400 yards, but would like to go much further than that…

I am not the go to guy on this stuff, but if I were starting off I would be looking at Savage. I have had several in both light and heavy barrels and it is not hard for to get them sub moa.

I think Leupold is the best bang for the buck. I do know folks shooting Millet and Bushnell and they do very well.

308 with 175gr bullets will go to 1k and beyond. The trouble you will run into is not enough elevation in the scope. I have 20moa Farrell mounts and ring on both of my f class guns and scopes with 30mm tubes.

Good luck

just starting out l would go with the best Remington l could aford and over the
years as you can,upgrade it,in the end you well have a great gun that will do all
you can do.
for a scope l would go with Leupold 12x the fixed power is all you need.l have one
12x over 30 years old,l think,never been back for anything.

Thanks...

Remington has a great reputation that has come into question as of late, at least by one article I read in a magazine, implying that the quality has fallen off in the lower end products and that you need to move up to get that kind of acuracy. Is there any truth to that magazine article, or are they just selling magazines? It has also been written that Savage has produced some very acurate rifles right out of the box. It's still is a tough call...

It seems the next question is which rifle, the Remington or Savage, is more adaptable to improvements. Is it easier for a gunsmith to get better results in acuratizing one over the other, or could equal results be expected? Can a novice, like me, do anything to either manufacturer's rifle that would improve the rifle's acuracy. For example, is there any advantage to changing to a McMillen Stock? That SEEMS to be one thing I might be able to tackle myself...

Appreciate any feedback...

Gonzo, I think you may be getting ahead of the game. What is your standard for accuracy? If your standard is 1/2 to 1 inch for 5 shot groups then I have a Savage 110FP in 223 that will do this. I also have a Savage 112 BVS in 300 WM that will do this. My Rem 700 in 308 will also do this. If your standard is much higher then you are not talking about a factory rifle at all. Look for a used benchrest rifle.
Peter

another thing you could do is get a second hand rem700 action, and just rebarrel it with a lilja,shilen,kreigher or hart. heavy contour maybe 28-30". while your gunsmith has it get him to do the trigger up. when you get it back bed the action into the stock. decent ring and base combo and a decent scope and youll be under half MOA i bet.

most gunsmiths have shot out benchrest barrels instock. get a long one-without pitting, when its rechambered and recrowned itll shoot nearly as good as new.


to be competitive you'll prob need to be about to shoot 1/3MOA. learning to read the wind will give you the best accuracy gain at long range, much more than a jewell trigger would

Thanks again...

Just got the sale flyer from Dick's Sporting Goods, who has a Remington 700 SPS Varmint Combo on sale for $459.98. It's available in .308 Heavy Barrel, with the X-Mark Pro trigger, but does not specify the brand name of the 4 - 12 x 40 scope. Any opinions on this package for a novice shooter?

Peter...I intend to seriously work on my long didtance shooting skills, but to this point my only test has been shooting my seldom cleaned Marlin 25N .22LR (with decient Bushnell Scope) at 100 yards a few times with bulk ammo. Most of my hits were in the black on a 2" bull, the one that has 12 bulls on one sheet. I really haven't established a standard of accuracy, which is why I an thinking I need to be realistic about this endeavor...

Hey Paul...That's also why I was thinking that something like that "Dick's Special" might be all I need with a few modifications. I would likely want to improve on the optics, but I take it that you suggest I would want to look at a better barrel and have a gunsmith "tweek" the trigger. For intermediate ranges, like 300 to 500 yards, what strength of optic power would be sufficent? I've used a 3 - 9, and the 4 - 12 doesn't seem like a big improvement...

I've got to be honest, I had to "Google" up Lilja, Shilen, Kreigher and Hart to figure out what you meant. Yep, I would say I'm a rookie. I'm finding that long range shooters have a bunch of different and new words in their vocabulary. Thanks for your patience...

I would really be neat to have the $6,000 .338 Extreme featured in a recent gun rag, but that's more gun than I have talent for at this point...

Id only do 3 things to that rifle.
1, bed the action into the stock
2, fully free-float the barrel
3, have the trigger lightened and creep removed.

a gunsmith can do this work for you and the cost is normally minor, or you can do it yourself.

however i might shoot perfectly acceptible groups right out of the box. expect accuracy to be at its best after 150-200 rounds through it.

with a bit of reloading to find what it likes, and some experience shooting the 308 and learning to read the wind will be the biggest accuracy gains you will get.

very hard to go wrong with a heavy barreled 308!

best of luck.

When I find I have a little extra time and am close to a Gun Shop, I've been stopping in and chatting about what I want to do. Although I always mention that I'm considering a Remington 700, every one I've talked to comes back with a recomendation for a Savage...

The concensus seems to be a Savage 12FVSS in .308 that has a 26" Heavy Fluted Stainless Steel Barrel (1 in 9" twist)(web-site says a 1 in 10" twist?) and a synthetic stock. It has the AccuTrigger, and a free-floating and button-rifled barrel. MSRP = $776.00

I also got more than one suggestion on a Bushnell Banner Dusk & Dawn 71-6244 scope that is 6-24 x 40 mm. MSRP = $178.16 Optics Planet = $114.90

Gun & Scope = $891.00

If I go that route is there any modifications I could do (or have done) that wouldn't break the bank, but might significantly improve acuracy?

Shoot it first! Use Sierra matchkings of 150, 155 or 168. With the right load you should have a 1/2" (100 yard) rifle there.
Peter.

If it will shoot 1/2" at 100 yards, what might I expect at 500 yards? You can be sure that I will start out short, but there is one tilled field on our farm that's in a valley, flat for 550 yards and has a 100 foot spoil bank on the north end. You know I'm going to try it!

Brother Gonzo,
I would go with a Savage. You can get one in 6BR which is more popular with the long range guys. It is very accurate to start.
Butch

Gonzo, My 2 cents worth. Loading good ammo is just as important as having a good rifle. I would invest in the best dies i could afford. Also a little time spent breaking in your new bbl. is IMHO very worthwhile. I would suggest Reddings competition die sets. Others might also be just as good, but I've come to trust Redding quality.

Gonzo,

Don't buy anything extreme in terms of weight or caliber. In fact I ask if you can hunt varmints there in Ohio in the off season with a rifle?

Such 'woodchuck' hunting can be some of the best shooting ever.

Another thing is that many guys near PA go there to hunt deer with a rifle. In fact I am in CT and I have shot two bucks there in PA.

Good luck and check your Ohio off season gun rules.

Thanks Brother Butch...I Googled that up and was able to read a little bit on the 6mmBR. It seems like a swell choice, but there is a ton of folks telling me to go with the .308. Right now I'm looking at the 12 FVSS, but if I can find a bit more loose change I'd love to pick up the 12F/TR...

If I go with the .308 I am likely to find ammo "on the shelf" that will work at close range, and let me get used to the gun. By the time I start reaching out, I hope to be handloading. Thanks for the suggestion on Redding swampshooter, I will add a note to my project files...

Hey Savage_99 we are able to hunt Wild Boar, Coyote and Varmints with Centerfire Rifles as long as we're not in Deer Shotgun Season. By the way, Squirrel and Rabbit are shotgun or rimfire only. Just had a crokpot full or Groundhog the other day, yummm, and in these parts we call 'em "Whistle Pigs." When you see one give a whistle, when it picks it's head up - BAM...

Peter was saying that the Savage 12FVSS should give me 1/2" groups at 100 yards. Would anyone know how it might perform at 400 to 500 yards?

This past Thurs I spotted for a gent shooting a new Savage .308 F/Tr. We are shooting 6in plates @ 500m. Bill sat down at a home made pdog bench his first shot was a hit next 2 missed and then he proceeded to clean the rest of the targets 22 straight hits . That rifle is so boring... Shooting Times[Long Range Rifles] tested this rifle using Varget and 155gr Sierra bullets and shot less than 1 in at 500yds.This is the load Bill was shooting . I'm hoping Bill will upgrade his scope he has a BSA something on it .I have let him try my 6 x 20 Leupold, I think that got him looking at better glass.

Yes I'm impressed with the rifle.

Hi;I'm new to the precision rifle shooting sports myself.(NON-COMPETING)Been on the sidelines for years reading about it and then recently(finally) was able to afford a poormans start into the sport.I spotted a used Savage Mod 10 Tactical,308,heavy barrel,with Harris bipod,and low grade high powered scope(8x32-50 mil-dot)brand name;Horizon.ANYWAYS,from what I've read and heard;That 2008 Savage Mod 12 Varmint or VBF whatever is the best bang for the buck.I read that a fella took one(bone stock 308) to a sillowet,lol,Iknow,match and won in F class.That rifle cost just shy of $1000 and it competed with some rifles costing $3000 and then some.He used his own reloaded ammunition of course.I think the 308 gives u the most versatility and variety of loads and bullets and prices.As for scopes.I've noticed that you don't need the higher magnification with the better optics.The target is that much clearer and sharply defined.Finer crosshairs or the smaller dot really help to shoot the smallest group possible.Some crosshairs r so fine they strained my eyes.If u come across a scope with those features for $350 or less let me know.That's my budget for a scope.Oh,and 1 other thing.Don't waste your money on factory ammo except to find what shoots best in your rifle in case u need some ammo in a pinch.Buy a reload kit.I bought Lee's Anniversary Set with neck sizing only COLLET DIE and it's paid for itself many times over.That's where half of the gratification comes from.Developing your own loads.Varmint loads,Target loads,Wild Hog loads.And invest in some bench rest bags/sandbags(seriously).Don't waste it on a lead sled or similer contraptions.Good luck.

I look for anything to read on long distance shooting, and the more I read the more impressed I am with what is said about Savage rifles. Leadlobber, thanks for sharing that experience. I really thought I was getting a Rem 700, but I've come across too much not to consider a Savage...

Hey Mike II, thanks for the post. I see it was your first one! I'm new to rifle shooting too, and intend to just to compete against myself for now. Just want to see how far I can punch holes in paper...accurately! I think I'm figuring out the rifle, and probably need to start looking through some scopes. As far as ammo, I might be stuck with "off the shelf stuff" until I can figure out how to reload my own...

Thanks to ya' all for all the stories and advice. Sure would appreciate hearing anything else anyone might have to say...

Black Hills .308-168 gr. match load shoots extremely well in most rifles. Much better than most hunting ammo. It would also provide you with some good cases to use when you start reloading. Midway sells it if you can't find it cheaper. About $26.00 a box plus shipping. If your really on a tight budget I would buy a Lee reloading kit with Lee collet dies, good quality brass all from the same lot, fed. 210m primers, sierra 168gr. M.K. bullets and Varget powder. If your pockets are a little deeper buy the RCBS Rockchucker kit and Lapua brass, everything else remains the same. Lapua brass would probably be the best place to spend an extra $20.00 if possible.

Gonzo,
Read this thread on BR.com. http://benchrest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=56372
308 Savage out of the box rifle. He shot 5 hunter targets which have 5 targets on each. This is in competition where very shot counts. He shot 23 shots in the 1/2" ten ring with 10 hitting the 1/8" X in the middle. The other 2 shots were in the 9 ring, just out of the 10 ring. Pretty damn hard to beat with a factory rifle.
Butch

I sometimes wonder if I put the cart before the horse here, but with all the different rifles, scopes, ammo, etc…available on the market today I didn’t have a clue where to start. I've been reading threads in a bunch of forums and have posted a couple of threads myself, read magazines (they do like everything they test), and stopped in at my local gun shops. When I inquired at the gun shops I would ask for their recommendation of a long-range target rifle that wouldn’t break the bank, and it was uncanny that every shop categorically suggested a Savage…

I just didn’t want to go out and buy something to get started, and be disappointed. At least I will know whatever I buy will be “right for the job,†leaving my own skill as my only limitation. I have enjoyed shooting my $100.00 .22LR, using bulk ammo and a scope I picked up at a garage sale for $25.00, and have done well at 100 yards. I hope to take it to the next level soon…

swampshooter, thanks for the tip about Black Hills ammo, and butchlambert, thanks for the link - I read the entire thread. At this point I’m not sure if I want to “zero†at 100 or 200 yards…I do not have any kind of time-table, but right now I’m limited to about 500 to 550 yards in the clear shooting lanes on our farm. I would sure like to go to 1,000 yards, and beyond, but for right now I had better learn the basics…

What power (magnification) of scope would be recommended that would work well at 500 yards, but still be as effective at 1,000 yards? How far would you want to “zero†for both or either? Does the size of the Obj. Lens matter, 40mm or 50mm? One recommendation was the Bushnell Banner Dusk & Dawn 71-6244, a 6 - 24 x 40mm scope…any thoughts on that one?