I have been shooting off a very sturdy homemade bench and using a Shooters Ridge rifle rest. The front bag is full of sand (my doing). The barrel pops up in the air after every shot. Some group are great, and some suck.

Should I look for the magical load by shooting from my bipod, since I will be shooting off it in the field?

What caliber are you shooting? The fact that it "pops up" should not affect group size as long as it does it the same each time. Where on the foreend are you resting the rifle? Forward or back?
Peter.

300wsm and 300wm. They rest in the exact same place on the forend on each shot due to the shooting rest I use.

ps-I love the verse.

MR the "quote" is from the movie, Kingdom of Heaven (good flick BTW). I have heard that shooting a bipod from a hard surface (like a heavy wooden bench or concrete pad) causes the bipod to do just what you describe off the rest, namely jump up. You could try shooting the bipod prone from soft ground and see if makes any difference. I have a couple of 300WMs and neither jumps significantly off the rest, so I don't know what to say.
Sorry, Peter.

Posting a photo here might help. Also, what model gun is it?

Sounds like the rest is causing the "problem". Suggest using conventional sand bags front and rear and proper bench technique for accuracy evaluation OR bipod for sighting in

Gun is a Browning A-bolt 300wsm and a custom Win70 300wm with 26" Shilen. The rest is this one:
Shooting Rest

Oh geez, MRAM! That gun is recoiling up because there is no place for it go! It can't go back (against your shoulder) so it has to go up. Now, I have never used a rest like that so I am ignorant of it and how to use it. I use a front rest, a separate rear bag, and the gun recoils against my shoulder. I use this method with guns up to a 416 Rigby, a 500/416 and a 450 x 3 1/4NE. I suspect that if I tried those guns with your rest the stock would break. Having said all that, I will let others weigh in. I would try and borrow a front rest and rear bag next time you are at the range and try it. Perhaps the club has some you can rent.
Good luck, Peter.

I was trying to avoid getting kicked in the shoulder (or pectoral muscle) too much, but I think I am going to start load development off my bipod since I will be hunting that way.

Out of curiousity, would it be possible to add a soft pad to the butt holder to simulate my shoulder?

"Butt holder"?

Mram, I think you have the right idea. Shoot it from the bipod (on the ground) and then if the recoil is too much for you, improve the recoil pad on the rifle itself. There are several available. While I have no facts to back this up, I suspect that the Browning may punish you more than the M70 (lighter?), so shoot the M70 first and see how it feels.
Keep us posted, Peter.

Old time solution for heavy recoil is to use what's called a "sissy bag" - simply a heavy sand bag between the gun butt and your shoulder when shooting from a bench.

Go here for more info: http://www.squidoo.com/benchrest-shooting

Doc,
Yes I said "butt holder" How does stock holder sound (not financially)?

I could probably toughen up and just shoot the darn things. I general put about 20 shots through each in a session. Do "sissy bags" affect POI?

MRAM, reading between the lines a bit here, I have the impression that the recoil of the rifles concerns you quite a bit. Is this just hearsay or have you actually "been bit" by one of these rifles? If you haven't, then as I said above take the M70 which should weigh quite a bit and shoot it. Hold it firmly, good cheek weld, and shoot it (using good hearing protection). The 300WM is not that bad in recoil, about the same as a 30.06. I have never used a sissy bag but I would think that it affects eye relief.
FWIW, Peter.
Peter.

quote:

I have never used a sissy bag but I would think that it affects eye relief.

True - also prevents getting cut by the scope, a distinctly undesirable event

What about a brake? I shoot a heavy M700 in 300 Win. Mag that reduces recoil to that of a .223......r in s.

It sounds as if you're shooting a pretty hot load or a heavy caliber? Someone mentioned that the rifle is going up because it has no where to go after hitting the stop--be it mechanical--or your shoulder.

If that is so, someone else's comment was succinct--if the action is the same every time, then the result would be the same every time. In other words, the shooter has to be practiced.

In target shooting and especially in BR shooting we seek to uniform all aspects of the shot, so that we are duplicating each action to get a uniform result which translates into bullets falling in the same area of the target. We shoot the mildest load that will produce the desired result off the softest rest that will support the rifle in order to achieve that result.

If your rest is too hard--the forend will bounce-you have no real control over this and so the bullets fall where they may. If you are controlling recoil by restricting the travel of the rifle in the rest--as opposed to free recoil shooting-- you must do it in a consistent manner to get consistent groups. I will not say this cannot be done, but it is interesting to note that the vast majority of short and medium range BR shooters use the free recoil method, and not a few LD BR guys as well, although free recoil is not as effective with the hotter loads.

I can tell you from personal experience that shooting free recoil is easier to learn than controlled recoil off bags-- for the reason you mention--the muzzle climb--but--it can work. I don't shoot any load hotter than a .30-06 off bags and I can get some nice 1/4 MOA groups at 200 yards with it using a tight controlled grip. I have seen other folks shoot very nice groups at even longer distance the same way--it takes a lot of practice. But then, accurate shooting is a lot like the old saw about "how do you get to Carnegie Hall?"


Folks who shoot competition without the aid of benches are very good at this. Some of them have even written books about it. The name David Tubb leaps to mind........

I am trying to take as much kick out as possible, due to taking out 4 rifles on a given day to find loads for them. 40 rounds later, my shoulder can hurt due to the wide array of loads. I am trying the Creighton Audit method on all of my guns to try and find some perfect loads ... again I think my problem is I hold the rifle to lightly at times and allow it to get a running start into my shoulder pocket.

As I said:

quote:

Hold it firmly, good cheek weld, and shoot it (using good hearing protection)

Let your body soak up the recoil.
I would not use free recoil on a 300WM hunting rifle. Free recoil is fine for a 222Rem or a 6mmBR weighing in at 12 pounds! If you let it get a running start on you it will probably hurt. Plus you run the risk of getting dinged by the scope.
BTW it is Audette I think!
Good shooting. Let us know what you work out.
Peter.

quote:

Originally posted by sonofagun:
Old time solution for heavy recoil is to use what's called a "sissy bag" - simply a heavy sand bag between the gun butt and your shoulder when shooting from a bench.

Go here for more info: http://www.squidoo.com/benchrest-shooting

Try it - you'll find it works.

Would the physics of the rifle to shoulder relationship be screwed up by using a sand bag in between? It seems it would, but is it enough to make a difference? Would it be noticable at 300 ... 500 ...800 yards?

Seems you have a problem with recoil and blast?

While I do not know how experienced you are, but perhaps you should put the centerfire guns away for a while and break out a 22 RF. practice for a few months, shooting as much as you can, focusing on the front sight or reticle and forget about recoil. At the same time, get a pair of dumbells, maybe 20 lbs each, and do upper body routines-focusing on your chest, arms and shoulders.

When you decide to take up the centerfires again, wear double hearing protection, a decent jacket, maybe a recoil attenuation device-PAST pad or similar, then take 5 rounds to the range with you, fire one at a time, single loading and waiting a few minutes between shots.

Also, do not shoot from a rigid position-shoot sitting or standing with a rest (rest your support hand on the rest, hold the forend in your hand) or even just using a sling (use a sling all of the time if you can).

Firmly (but in a relaxed manner) hold the rifle, place your head lightly on the stock, insure your eye releif is correct-your neck should not be strecthed forward or pulled back; draw the butt against your shoulder and pectoral muscle-avoid the "pocket" for now, it is a hollow of skin backed by clavicle and rib bones, not much else (unless you are of plump body type...).

Fire one shot-if you flinch at this shot, pack up and go back to the 22 RF. Flinching and recoil sensitivty are a chronic problem stemmng from either pain (impact and noise) or fear thereof. You must mentally force yourself to break a shot without any other reaction other than pressure from your trigger finger...

If you have a shooting buddy, have them load the rifle for you-instruct him to either load or simply simulate-so you do not know for certain, (ball and dummy drill). When the gun is loaded, you should fire a perfect shot-when it is not, you should not show any muzzle movement-since you are executing perfect shots....

Practice with a buddy or spouse with an unloaded gun, NO ammo anywhere nearby, and a dime/small coin-get into a prone or sitting unspported (other than sling) position and have your assitant place the dime near the muzzle of the rifle once it is cocked (pointed in an absolutely safe direction), break the shot-the goal is to keep the dime balanced on the barrel as the striker/hammer falls.

Oh, it may help if you take a pain reliever/aspirin etc before you shoot-and after if needed for headache or pain.

Perfect Practice makes Perfect Execution.

Hope this helps.

One other thing- focus on your front sight like the world depends onit. Yu mind should be clear and focused ONLY on teh front sight or reticle ( I prefer open sights for training). Think that this is the once in a lifetime shot to be made, each and every shot should be such-EVERYTHING rides on each shot....

I tend to think that the shot I am making is the one that will make all the difference in the world-I'll defeat a threat, stop a charging tyrannosaur, win teh national championship, shoot out the fuze of an atomic bomb....

Andrew,
I am not sure your angle here, but I think you are a little off base. As far as physical strength, I am 34 and in really good shape (still wrestle). I hit the gym all the time, so I guarantee you that strength has nothing to do with it. I have hunted and shot rifles my whole life. My issue was with the rest I was using. If you were trying to be helpful, then thank you, but it seems like you weren't.

Fitness does, so I assumed nothing. I train all types of shooters and fitness and technique are all very important to handling recoil, even from a small to medium bore as I understand you to be shooting. Certainly in a lightweight sporting rifle, a 300 whatever can beat on the shooter, so my angle was training to improve your or anyones ablity to shoot well. No angle other than to perhaps give you some technical advice.

Anyway, best;

Well so how's it going? Tried using a sissy bag yet?

If your trigger pull is set anywhere above about 8 oz. you're probably flinching. Your post contains all the "symptoms" of flinch: Heavy recoil, lots of bag, some tight groups, some suck groups.

I put a Jewell on my gun and set it up for about 4 oz. no creep. Makes all the difference in the world.

Once I have done my initial load work-up on the rests I move to the bipod if the rifle is to be a field rig. You mentioned the change in poi using the bipod from the bench which I found to be a non issue by putting a square of carpet under the bipod to simulate the give in the ground. Then a check of the ground should comfirm the bench - bipod results.

Von Gruff.

Well things are going much better. I put a limbsaver on my A-bolt 300wsm. Along with the muzzle brake it is a joy to shoot now. Got a new 300wm with no brake and the stock concrete pad and it beat me up, so that will change very soon. I am going to build a custom when I feel I have all the kinks worked out of my logic and add all the things you guys have mentioned (light trigger, muzzle brake, limbsaver pad, etc).
I have only been shooting off the bipod and this last outing my 5 shot groups were all sub moa at 300yds. I am pretty happy. Thanks again for the constructive advice guys.

What does your 300 weigh? What bullet weight and velocity are you pushing?

Have you shot "big" bores?

Good trigger helps regardless of recoil attenuation devices applied.

Drew,
I haven't weighed it. I am guessing just under 10 lbs. I am shooting a 185 Berger VLD with 59g H380. It doesn't push it that fast, but since I don't have a chrono I would just be guessing. I would think around 2850, but am not certain.
"Big bores", no I have not. My 300s are the biggest I have shot.
As for a good trigger, I am still in need of that. I had a gunsmith work on this one but had a workshop accident and the trigger broke. A well placed 16 penny nail has since taken the place till I take time to get it fixed. Ghetto, I know.

I have a 300WSM rifle that weighs 18 pounds. It has a Shrewd muzzle brake on it. Kicks like a .243Win with it on. Kicks like an angry mule with it off. It, too, jumps about four inches off the bag without the brake on. The recoil goes upward because of the way a stock is designed. The buttstock is below the bore, your hips are below your shoulder. That is a big hinge through which the recoil can swing. It doesn't knock you flat over on your obama because your mass and inertia factor is greater than that of the rifle. It does kick you and it does get annoying after a while. But you knew that...

18 lbs and you feel it??? Jumps off the bag???

Something doesn't sound right. I've shot a 9 lb. Rem 700 in 30-06 off a bench with no such problems.

I mean it kicks, but some recoil padding or sissy bag makes it tolerable.

Thanks for the non-response homebrewer.

Maybe you're taking a wee too much of your homebrew?