Figured this is the right forum to ask.

Please enlighten me about the term "flinching". Describe in detail what it looks like, please , after you finish reading.

Okay. I've shot from the bench for years, including thousands of rounds developing accurate (hunting) loads for approaching ten different rifles all the way to .416 Rigby. Each gun can go into a half-dollar size group off rests at 100 yards using published loads.

On my second safari I was told "Barry, you are raising your head and therefore shooting high" (off shooting sticks). At the range, based on comments, I'm still apparently doing something akin to that despite consciously trying to follow through and do as my PH advised technique-wise. I can now put all shots into an oval Chinette plate at 100 yards with my 7x64 and at 50 yards with my .416 Rigby off sticks. But, if I can do better I'd sure like to, and I still flinch. (I missed a kudu broadside at 50 yards with the Rigby and missed several times at whitetail with a .280 Remington out blind / "hide" windows in 2005 which made me start to wonder.)

What I don't understand concerns specific technique (I guess?) Assuming I have good eye relief with my scopes and have never been 'dinged', double protect my hearing, wear a shoulder pad and have a firm hold each time I shoot, what might I be missing? I have adjusted for a uniform 14" length of pull on my own guns. And, I don't fear shooting but had decided the noise bothered me vs. recoil.

I even checked out scope power setting as a cause for missing out the window of Texas deer stand/blind, and built a "half window" to place on the gun range bench to duplicate conditions. It wasn't power setting there, but hold and rest conditions that mattered. Maybe y'all could give feedback that will help me figure out this "flinching" angle. Toward that end I'd like to know what an observer sees when he concludes he is seeing me flinch.

Thanx

BNagel

Try laying off the big bores (and ANY centerfire for that matter) for a while, and shoot LOTS of 22LR.

You'll get over your flinch quickly, and after thousands (I said, shoot a LOT ) of rimfire rounds, muscle memory will hopefully have taken over.

quote:

...despite consciously trying to follow through...

You should be able to hold a rifle steady and *squeeze* your shot off without flinching, almost subconsciously, if you can get to the point of pure muscle memory. Your body will take over, and leave your mind out of it (well, sort of).

Continue to shoot lots of rimfire whenever you can, and especially if you feel the flinches coming back.

quote:

Toward that end I'd like to know what an observer sees when he concludes he is seeing me flinch.

When I was instructing, things that I'd watch for were closing the eyes just before the shot (a dead giveaway), a trigger finger that would go forward immediately before jumping back to fire the shot, white knuckle grip, tensed muscles right before the shot, and believe it or not, a flinch so bad that you could actually see the rifle moving (being yanked, usually downward) immediately before the shot.

BN

A good instructor can tell if you're flinching by where the shots go on a target. For example, when shooting a pistol off-hand, flinch, or push, shots will be low and left. But it's very easy to detect flinching. Get a buddy to help you. Set up a rifle on a bench-rest or sand bags. Not a sissy rifle but one with a reasonable kick to it. You sit at the bench, ready to shoot. Close your eyes (no peeking!) and have your buddy load the rifle for you, single shot. Only sometimes he loads a round and sometimes he just closes the bolt. When you touch the trigger you don't know if it's going off or not. Make sure he keeps the loaded vs empty situation completely random. If you flinch you will know it immediately. I don't need to describe what happens. You'll see.

Ray

I have found that after shooting big stuff the smaller stuff didn't bother me nearly as much. In my case at least, I think trigger pull can also be a factor. If the pull is so heavy that a lot of effort is required to ease into the shot, you have too much time to think about what is going to happen and flinch.

I have a 458 Lott with the set trigger (which I love and routinely use) and an Encore in 460 S&W Magnum with a 1½ to 2 lb. pull. In both cases, the gun goes boom before I have time to think about flinching.

Good input guys. Thanks and I'll print this out for reference -- have to lay off entirely while my tennis elbow subsides. Hopefully I'll be able to apply it soon.

Barry

Bnagel. I am going to disagree with the previous posters. Flinching is a bodily anticipation of the gun going off. The negative effect of this is if it moves the gun while the trigger is being pulled, hence the bullet impacts somewhere other than the point of aim. Moving the head is certainly a possible type of flinch, but is rather "gross" movement. Is it possible that you are not 'flinching" at all, but rather adopt a different cheek position on the stock when shooting off sticks than when shooting from a bench say? This different head position might well give you a different, but consistent point of impact. The effect of flinching is generally that one's group goes to hell, rather than yielding a consistent point of impact that is too high in your case. I hope this makes sense.
peter.

You can also do Cheechakos method by yourself - just load some rounds with no powder and a spent primer - place them with loaded rounds in a box and load them randomly (don't look at them). But still helps to have an observer (video tape yourself if you can).

Another technique is not to use the tip of your finger on the trigger, but the next part between the first and second joint - esp with heavier triggers.

All my hours on the range with soldiers--we call that drill "ball and dummy" and it works. Not such a problem with the M16, but the M1 and M14 yes. Lady soldiers sometimes have problems with the M16 though, but the drill sure helps.

As previous posters mentioned, try shooting 22s. Also, be sure to use hearng protection and wear a sissy pad on the shoulder. Not only protecting hearing, ear protection helps prevent finching. While I don't use it all the time, but doing a lot of shooting with magnum cartridges, I'll use my sissy pad.

Joe A.

Peter (and all)

Range time today tells me what I need(ed) to do with respect to avoiding flinching shooting off sticks + keep my head down and follow through translates into the following for me;

Do the "cheek weld" thing to keep my head down/stay looking through the scope/don't admire the shot, etc. Along with good squeezing approach this has made the difference for me. When I keep my cheek down on the stock with .300 H&H Remington 721 or .375 WeM Brno ZKK 602 all the way until the gun stops moving, targets show I'm doing a good job. Let's see if I can maintain that cheek weld with the .416 Rigby CZ 550!!

Thanks again

Barry

Good news BNagel! I have a CZ550 in 416Rigby. It should be heavy enough for you to handle well, especially if you can handle a 375H&H.
Peter.

Update:

Both my .375 WeM Bruno ZKK 602 and the CZ 550 Safari Magnum .416 Rigby already had the correct 14" LOP / cheek piece / scope mounts <--> proper eye alignment for a great "cheek weld" that fits me. The Lux stock on my CZ 550 7x64 Brenneke with a Decelerator and spacer is great, but I need to remount scope in medium Warne's like the .375 has -- the CZ rings are just too high up! -- for proper alignment.

After market strap-on leather butt pad makes my .280 Remington BDL DM align similarly. The custom stock on my .300 H&H Remington 721 needs a strap-on or pull-on cheek piece to give me a Monte Carlo effect and that rifle will be ready for practice. What do y'all recommend?

I'm getting there!! It's funny to experience the process of applying what you've read and what people advise. Turning it all into reality somehow doesn't just flow from info gathered -- you have to try and do it to actually gain understanding. Found that out alot from hunting and these forums.

Thanx again

BNagel

what has worked for ME, is repeating the mantra "see the target thru the sights, squeeze the trigger, keep seeing the target thru the sights...". I am currently working up cast bullet loads for a friend's 505 Gibbs...like to date a 650gr bullet at 2030fps...and stepping up the load today. Keep thinking...

Rich

I had a flinch that was more from the noise than from the recoil. Wearing double ear protection helped a lot. Living in town and working near a skeet range caused me to take up skeet shooting to get in more shooting of any sort. About 7 years of shooting 4 rounds of skeet twice a month eliminated the flinch. I went from a 12 ga auto to a 20 pump to a 20 ga autoloader and back to a 12 ga pump. Some time during that time period I learned to concentrate on hitting the target, and quit flinching.
I think it was the old timer that told me to keep my head on the stock. "Keep wood on wood"

sometimes its hard to concentrate on shooting when you are getting battered by the recoil. and getting hit in the face by the scope helps a lot! i've started to flinch now. even the 303 starts to hurt when all thats between you and the rifle is a brass plate. then i moved to the 300WSM where i occasionally get a good weatherby eyebrow.

If you are shooting big bores off the bench alot then you are getting battered quite a bit, and your subconscious is registering it, even if you are generally dominating it. Try using a shooting rest set-up like the Caldwell Lead-Sled. It absorbs most of the recoil, even on a big bore, and allows your sub-conscious to get into a different gear.

A couple of things I do, (even on smaller bores):
1. Let every shot suprise you
2. WATCH for fire or impact.
3. Let a friend load your gun and have him / her load a fired shell one out of 5... You'll KNOW if your flinching...
4. Practice all of the above with small bores.

I saw the name and wanted to reply, you might be a relative after all. Took me a while to get a user name and access to the forum.

Anyway the one thing I would add is if you can call your shot (say what the sight picture was when the gun went off) you probably did not flinch.

I also wondered if there was a genetic component, I am small or old enough to have decided I am not fond of that kind of recoil.

dnagel

We're third generation German-American derived -- fourth generation is "mutts", ie., all over European-Americans. My dad lives in Illinois near Keokuk, Iowa.

What cured my flinching problem was doing the cheek weld thing, leaving my head down on the stock through out recoil and follow through phases. Off shooting sticks, the .375 and .416 still let you know to grab on tight, but the .300 H&H feels "right" and I can hit where I am holding although the groups are opened up.

Having good stock fit and double ear protection is also vital for me. Got lots of good input at AR.

Barry Nagel

All: I am a large person (6' 3" 260 pounds) and yet I have been prone to what I call "flinching" for decades now!
I am sure I do not raise my head in anticipation of the shot (like you do) but I do wince , blink and jerk the trigger on occassion!
This conditon comes and goes and the only thing that brings it on is by my partaking of a range session with one of my Magnum type Big Game Rifles!
Therefore I seldom shoot them from the bench rest anymore. I only shoot them at Game and at the range for sight in verification before Hunts.
I don't advocate this regimen for anyone else by the way!
I do get along fine with this policy for myself though as I shoot year round with my "mild recoiling centerfires".
I mainly shoot centerfire Rifles (Varmint/target type Rifles) of VERY light recoil or NO RECOIL AT ALL!
And I do this thousands of times a year.
And I need an absloute "flinch" free let off for the maximum in accuracy - both at the range and out in the Varmint fields!
And when I am shooting these mini-recoiling Rifles I usually do not even BLINK at the shot!
If I "THINK" about not blinking, not flinching and not jerking the trigger I most always get off a GOOD shot!
That is asking a lot of me though - to think before each trigger pull!
Especially if I am within two weeks of last shooting one of my Magnums!
I wish I had a definitive solution for those of us that suffer this "condition" - but I don't!
The closest I can come to the proper mind set for averting the flinch effect is for me to think - this Rifle is gonna recoil and its not gonna hurt, theres nothing I can do about it and I want that trigger to break.... now.... when the crosshairs are PERFECTLY placed!
Its a mind game I can't completely win - and that pisses me off.
I shot a 460 Weatherby once. I can vouch to you that there are several hundred Varmints that lived through that year thanks to that one FOOLISH "experience" (ego trip!) I had!
Best of luck to all with the flinches!
I feel for your pain.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

I have read this thread for awhile and what seems to be working for me is, reducing the noise. I wear ear plugs and muffs now and it really has helped my shooting with my 300 win. It helps when those guys show up at the range with the big ROYS with m/brakes on also. They always seem to sit right next to me.

Dry firing is a good cure for flinching, and for diagnosing the problem. Get someone to load the rifle for you and hand it to you without you seeing if there"s a round in the chamber or not. If the gun is empty, on firing the action the sight picture should"nt move at all. I practice with my .44 revolver by putting in 1 or 2 rounds and spinning the cylinder. I then shoot a target without looking if I have a round under the hammer.
good shooting

Sounds like you are making real progress. Let me suggest that when you are shooting your large PopinBoomers, take a .22LR with you. While waiting for barrels to cool, shoot a serious string with the .22 of 5 to ten shots. You'll be surprised at how it helps re-focus you on basics after a 416 session. I find I shoot better if I use foam ear plugs plus electronic muffs. The muffs let me hear "regular" while muffed up, and when the muff shuts off, I get double protections. Kudude

"missed several times at whitetail with a .280 Remington out blind / "hide" windows in 2005 which made me start to wonder."

Discovered that laying the bare barrel on the side of a blind window causes havoc with accuracy. Apparently causes the barrrel to "jump" sending shots wild.

I was having some problems anticipating shots with a .300 RUM and solved much of it by installing a Jewell trigger. I could feel when the factory trigger was about to release the shot and was flinching or yanking the trigger in response.