Until last week, all my long range shooting (up to 900 yards) was done using open sights, with service rifles (.303) on formal ranges with manned butts etc. Last week I went to Bradford Sportsmens Farms here in Florida. The main interest was their 300 and 600 yard ranges. I took my Savage 110FP in 223 and my Rem 700 HB in 308. As both were already pretty much sighted in at 200 yards (the max of my local club) getting on paper at 300 was easy and I shot a couple of pretty good groups, one with each rifle. Accurate shooting was not easy as the benches were very close together and made of wood. The guy next to me shooting his 300wsm (in a semi auto rifle)did not make life easier! Still Iw as happy with about 1 1/2 groups out of each rifle. My main interest was 600 yards however.
So, moving to the 600 yard range was an eyeopener! To make a long story short I never did shoot a group for record! The mirage at 600 was pretty bad. Also, I could not see bullet holes (of course!) even with "shoot n' see" type targets (8") Bullet splashes on the berm with the 223 could not be seen. My scope adjustments that I had obtained from external ballistic calculators using the documented BC's and my own muzzle velocities could not be verified (except that they did not reliably put me on paper). What an education!
So, I am open to suggestions, however, next time I plan on doing the following:
1. Reestablish my 200 yard zero.
2. Use the intermediate ranges available on the 600 yard range (ie. 300, 400, 500) and move up slowly. This will mean plenty of driving back and forth, lots of ammo but at least reliably get me zeroed in.
3. Document all scope adjustments. I wanted to do this the last time, but was over confident in my (theoretical) adjustments.
4. Try to do one rifle at a time, perhaps? I really want to do both, due to the driving back and forth etc.
5. Use larger "black" targets and give up on the shoot n' see type targets.
6. Just expect plenty of back and forth!
I was unable to get a shooting "partner" to spot my shots.
What have I missed?
Peter.

With the driving involved I'd try both rifles at once with separate note books. What bullet weights are you using?

My most accurate loads for the 223 use 69 grain SMKs and 77 Grain Nosler Match. The 308 really likes 150 grain SMKs and 155 Nosler Match.
Peter.

Might I suggest that you zero your rifle for 100 yards and then "come up" 15 minutes to put you on target at 600. For the 223 may want to use a minute more or say 16 minutes. With your 200 yard zero, either of the above come ups should put you on target. After 600 try 5 moa for 700 and 5 more for 800 or some 10 minutes more than your 600 yard setting. Add approx. 5-6 minutes more for 900 and 1000. If you are using std. long range target faces and can not seem to get on paper, old trick is to move up some 4 minutes, down some 4 minutes, left 4 minutes and right 4 minutes. This is used for the 1000 yard target face which is some 72" in size/square. Believe black is 44" for the 1000 yard target. Target for 8,9,1000 the same size. At 1000 yards, 4 minutes is 40" up, down, right or left. Quite a spread and should get you on with 4 shots. Good luck in your shooting!!

Theose bullet weights and dsiteman's come ups sound like a good day at the range. I haven't been past 6 myself but I'm puting those in the back of my data book for the Butner Long Range next year.

Hello Sam,
I should have mentioned that the come ups given will probably be a bit on the low side, but in the target. If you are high and miss the target frame all together, it is tough for those in the pits to give an idea where it went.
All you need is to "get on" and then you can walk it in w/ minimum shots. Below are the come ups I have used for quite a few years:

100 - 200 2moa
200 - 300 3moa
300 - 600 10moa*
600 - 800 10moa
800 - 900 6moa
900 - 1000 6moa
(these work for heavy bullets of 5.56/223 and 308/175's as well.)

*When shooting 5.56/223 I usually add one moa or 11moa@600. If using 80Sierra HPBT match at 600 and on to 1000 I find the come ups just a bit more than the 7.62/308. With the 5.56/223 a general rule of thumb is add 3moa per 100 yards out to 700. Not saying it will put you in the X ring, but will get a hit. I would suggest to you a web site that will simulate lots of ranges plus winds and it is a good way to practice "dialing in" the come ups and determining windage correction.

Try www.shooteready.com Good info there.

Peter

Unless you can devise some way to spot your individual shots at the mid and long distances (600 & 1000 yards) you'll never make much progress. There are so many environmental things going on between you and the target that it is impossible to dope them without a set of wind flags and the aformentioned spotter.

You should also chrono your loads and run the data thru an exterior ballistics program but I think dsiteman's numbers will probably get you on paper with the first shot (at 600 yards, at least).

Ray

Hello Peter,
As Cheechaco pointed out, wind is the variable that is tougher to determine vs elevation. I was given a formula for doping the wind some 5 decades ago and use it with some success. Here goes and would point out that it is not perfect, but will usually get me on target w/ whatever wind is out there at ranges out to 1000.

Formula: R x V/1000= Wind Adjustment(moa)
Example: Range x Velocity of the wind(est.) divided by 1000 = adj. needed. If you were shooting at 600(Range) and the Velocity of the wind was est. to be 10 mph,right to left, and doing the math would give you 6000 and then divide by 1000 would yield 6 moa of adjustment to the right. This adjustment would be pretty close to being on PROVIDING it is a full value wind or 3 o'clock to 9 o'clock. There is a factor other than 1000 for each clock face position, but that makes it complicated and cumbersome to do "in your head" quickly, so over the years I find that not being able to determine the exact direction the wind is coming from, use a compormise appraoch and divide the answer, 6moa in this case, by half or two thirds. Flags are a definite aid, but if it rained the night before, flags are not of correct size/material, false reading will result. In the example above I would start out with some 4 moa right adjustment and go from there. Other users of this method would argue that you should put on the 6 minutes, but I have always found it hard to determine if the wind is truly from right to left or perpindicular to the flight of the bullet where drift would be the most. Hence, the correction of the answer of 6 reduced by half or two thirds. Might seem complicated until you practice with it a bit, but as you are looking through the spotting scope, etc. and judging the wind speed, the basic calculation can be made in a few seconds and adjustments made quickly.
Might point out that in addition to the wind adj. in my example I would also come down a click or two since most likely you are shooting a rifle with right hand twist. Reason, bullet will tend to climb w/ right to left wind of that velocity and that elevation adj. will help counter act tendancy to keep you in the 10 or X ring. If wind from left to right, would come up a click or two. Opposite behavior of flight of bullet w/ left wind. I see some younger shooters at times, put the correct windage on, but then wonder why it went a bit high on them or even out of the 10 ring and as high as an 8 ring. They think they pulled the shot or jerked the trigger and may well have done that, but are not aware of the overall impact wind has on the bullet in flight. Just a few suggestions and may not work for you at all, but might want to give it a try and see what happens.

Gentlemen thanks for your input. I did take the first step that was suggested:

quote:

My scope adjustments that I had obtained from external ballistic calculators using the documented BC's and my own muzzle velocities could not be verified (except that they did not reliably put me on paper).

Now, as to why these were not sufficient to put me on paper, I don't know. I may have outsmarted myself by thinking that, with 4 clicks moving the POA 1" at 100 yards, then I would only need one click to move it 1" at 400 yards etc.etc. So I may have outsmarted myself! In any case, I have to redo the whole exercise. As to wind, I forgot to mention that the wind was from 1 o'clock so should not have materially affected my getting on paper (I don't believe). I agree about the wind flags and will have to bring my own.
Peter.

Hi,

You could try what we do at Bisley when shooting out to 1200 yards.

Because of the proximity of the range to urban areas, unavoidable on our small island, we are required to "prove zero" before using the rifle on the ranges.

the reason being that a discharge that misses the berms could end up in a town called Bracknell if the angle of the shot is greater than about 5 degrees from the horizontal.

The NRA, being the governing body of formal target shooting in the uk, provide a zeroing target which is calibrated for the two weights of issued RG that we use in competition 155gr and 147gr at the 77'7" range of the zeroing range.

The target looks like an inverted crucifix and has marked on with small black bands on the vertical line the equivalent (in terms of minutes) of the target you would be shooting at all ranges between 100 and 1200 yards.

You aim at the black circle at the bottom of the cross and if you shots land somewhere in the band for range you intend to shoot above the dot, you know you will at least be on the paper at that range.

I could post a target but we have a random zero range( who the hell else would zero at 77' 7"?!?) but obviously you would need to do you own calculations and plot your own target for say 100 yards.

The day before the long range shoot you go to your 100 yard range, dial in x minutes on the rear sight, check your shots are on the right place and head off suitably reassured.

Hope that helps!

Regards,

GH

ghubert, I remember that range well! I thought it was 1000 inches? At least that is what it was for the 303. I would like to develop something like that, but I think the target would be about 4 feet high, wouldn't it?
Peter.

quote:

Originally posted by Peter:
ghubert, I remember that range well! I thought it was 1000 inches? At least that is what it was for the 303. I would like to develop something like that, but I think the target would be about 4 feet high, wouldn't it?
Peter.

It may have been, I have only been shooting there for a year or so. I was mistaken the range is 71" 7" which would be 859".

You have made me think about the reason for such a short range and the answer seems to be as you have indicated. The zero target is about 2 feet high at that range with the lines being about 1 1/2 feet on the vertical and 10" on the horizontal.

Perhaps the idea would be better suited to a 50 yard rather 100 yard range so as to avoid excessive target height?

I'll see if I can dig one up for you.

Regards,

GH

Actually, if the target is for a 308, which it is presumably is, that would be handy as I have access to a range with intermediate yardages, otherwise I am limited to the more formal distances ie. 100 and 200. My comment about 4 1/2 feet high was based on 100 yards and the max. height above line of sight and drop at the longer ranges. I should have thought more! The 71 foot range would be much less.
Good to here from the "old country"! In my younger days I have happy memories of renting a Webley from the store at Bisley and buying some targets of a charging Nazi stormtrooper with teeth bared!
Peter.

I've seen comercially available 100 yd. targets with zero's for longer ranges, i don't know who sells them, but i'd bet they could be found on the inter-net. I make my own as my home range is only 300 yds.

swampshooter, thanks for the tip! I made my own for smallbore silhouette shooting. I will do a search. However, wouldn't the height of the target be huge? I estimate I would have to come up 60 clicks or so (1/4 minute), from a 100 yard zero to be on (roughly) at 600 yards. Am I wrong?
Peter.

It took me a while to find the designation, but you're refering to S-M1-50 targets. One of the rifle ranges here used to have them. They have a aiming point on the bottom and are marked for ranges above it. A yahoo search will show them from two distributers.

60 clicks is 15 inches. From a 500 yard zero back down to 100 yards I came down 45 clicks on a scoped .30-06 with Remington 165 gn factory loads.

Thanks Sam, I will take a look.
Peter.

Peter, your correct, this target is much higher than normal. They are very easy to make yourself as long as you know how your rifle shoots at long range. Even if not perfect though, they will get you on paper at the longer ranges, and be very close to what you want. Even if long range drop is known from previous shooting, corrections will have to be made according to range conditions and weather conditions before shooting for record.