I recently was discussing having a new rifle built by a smith that specializes in benchrest and target rifles. I want to build a long range 300 Win Mag for Texas Sendero hunting. When the subject of barrels came up he strongly recommended a 24 inch barrel varmint weight and advised against flutes. He felt the longer barrel (26")ran a greater risk of stress and felt fluting could possibly cause accuracy to suffer. Is there agreement among the AR shooters? I thought I had this new gun ready to start but now I'm confused. Any advise will be appreciated! Merry Christmas!!!

There are differing opinions on fluting. Some "experts" say the bore will "open up" when fluted. Other "experts" disagree with this theory. I don't think either group of "experts" thinks that fluting a barrel makes it more accurate. I build rifles to the customers desires. I offer my opinion and advise but if the customers want flutes, they get flutes.

The purpose of a magnum "sendero" style rifle is distance. I for one would demand a 26" barrel as a minimum. As to the flutes, when I have had Hart Rifle Barrels rebarrel a rifle with flutes, I do believe that the contour and flutes are done before final lapping.

If it were my gun I would get what I wanted. Get the 26" barrel.

I would skip the flutes.

Yup. Skip the flutes. They serve the pupose of weight reduction and heat removal. Most people will shoot a 300 Winny at a reasonable rate. I would go for the 26" or maybe even a 28".

For hunting from a platform and wanting the maximum I would go with at least a 26 if not a 28- skip the flutes- you want to keep the recoil at a minimum.

I worked with a guy that made barrels for a well known maker that once made a lot of benchrest barrels. He said any thing you do to the out side of the barrel afftects the interior. Including the rollmarking of the logo and such. He said no flutes.

LJS: I concur here with the several other posters who have suggested the 26" minimum barrel length for your Sendero Rifle.
It free velocity at a very small price!
And the heavier (longer) barrel helps out in the ways mentioned as well as reducing recoil and getting the muzzle blast a little further away from you.
Now having said that I want to relay this to you!
Several years ago I bought a factory stock Remington 700 Sendero in 270 Winchester caliber!
I have been just thrilled with this Rifle and its 26" Varmint weight, non-fluted barrel!
Both its accuracy and its ability to maintain a consistent P.O.I. have me using this Rifle for my long range Mule Deer, Antelope and Whitetail Hunting! In addition I killed a 6x6 Bull Elk with it this November!
I give you this suggestion in this vein - its a factory Rifle and you may save some big dollars going with one of these AND I assume you are going to be Hunting Deer in Texas on the Senderos? I have taken medium size Big Game out to 500 yards now with this Rifle. I have a Leupold 8.5x25 variable scope on it.
Just a suggestion.
Best of luck with your new project.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

quote:

Originally posted by eddieharren:
There are differing opinions on fluting. Some "experts" say the bore will "open up" when fluted. Other "experts" disagree with this theory.

A friend has measured bores with a Sheffield air gage before and after the barrel's fluted. Here's what happens.

Button rifled barrels have a tight spot at each end of the flutes and are a bit larger between the flute ends.

Hammer forged barrels are the opposite of button rifled ones; loose spot at the ends and tight under the flutes.

Cut rifled barrels can go either way but the dimensional change is very small and typically less than hammer forged or button rifled barrels.

Fluting barrels doesn't make them cool down as fast as a coarse sand blasted one. Sand blasting the barrel adds more surface area than fluting and more surface area means faster cooling. But a properly stress relieved barrel doesn't bend and change point of impact when it heats up. Military arsenal test barrels have a couple hundred rounds shot 30 seconds apart and their best rifle match grade ammo so tested stays under 7 inches at 600 yards. Civilian tests of 40 to 50 shots fired 20 to 30 seconds apart have stayed under 3 inches at 600 yards. If your barrel changes point of impact as it heats up, it's either not properly stress relieved or fit to the receiver incorrectly.

Once again, "a friend" has told you something that you have taken for gospel and, feel compelled to pass it along as such. Proof. That is what we are searching for. Everyone on this board knows about opinions.
Two, of the many barrel makers I deal with, will flute barrels for me after I have fitted, chambered and crowned the barrel. I have seen no bad results or loss of accuracy. I doubt either of these button rifle barrel makers would do anything to one of their barrels that could cause it to not perform.
As for the air gauge test. We all know it is the standard for testing barrels for internal uniformity. I have been in the shop of one of the above mentioned barrel makers when he was gauging barrels. Three barrels were gauged and the one with the least "wobble" was fitted to his rifle for testing. This barrel would not shoot up to his standards. The last time I spoke with him I asked about this barrel and, if it had ever "come around". He replied, "It still won't shoot better than a .3 even after 500 rounds." So much for air gauging being the "final word".

quote:

Originally posted by eddieharren:
So much for air gauging being the "final word".

Who said anything about air gaging being the final word?

I don't think air gaging is the "standard" either. Some barrel makers use star gages.

Which barrel makers use star guaging?
Butch

Butch, the ones who made all those great "National Match" M1 barrels back in the early days. This guy is hopelessly mired in the past.

Eddie

Even those "great" NM barrels were not guaranteed to shoot any better than a standard barrel, only that they were uniform in dimensions and within specifications. My brother was a Master Sergeant in one of the Marksmanship Armories in San Antonio during the 1960s and he told me that many of the GI issue barrels, even the 2 groove ones, would shoot as good or better than some of the Match barrels. But of course, the higher-ups would only accept rifles with match barrels and didn't seem to care how well they shot, only that they were assembled from match parts and so marked.

As we all know, there ain't a barrel maker alive or dead who will guarantee that his barrels will shoot tiny groups.

Ray

I would have to agree " NO Barrel Maker " guarantees their barrels will do a single hole 5 shot group !. Experienced hand loaders know careful precise loading of matched components are the ' ONLY WAY " to accuracy !. Even then there is NO GUARANTEE'S !. I spent money on a Top quality barrel had it Cryogenically Treated then lapped . It has served me VERY WELL , but it never made 5 shot one hole groups !. Then nothing I have ever loaded has , close but the Fat Lady never sung or lit my Cigar !. 37 years and I'm still trying for that single 5 shot hole !. Hell if I ever do it WHO would believe me any how !.

Appearances can be deceiving , just look at OUR GOVERNMENT !.

For and By the politician in Power !. People My Ass !.

I'll give the Iraqi's one thing " They Hung that Bastard ".

Popular or not they did it !. Just Try that in this Country !.
The above statements are NON POLITICAL !!!!!!!!!!!...

Ray, I agree 100%. Even though there were some "great barrels" back in the 50's and 60's, I think we have the best barrels nowdays, that we have ever had. I also believe that all other components have kept pace. I can't wait to see the new products that are being developed as we speak. Good Shootin'.

quote:

Originally posted by butchlambert:
Which barrel makers use star guaging?
Butch

Kreiger, Obermeyer, Chanlynn...

quote:

Originally posted by eddieharren:
Butch, the ones who made all those great "National Match" M1 barrels back in the early days. This guy is hopelessly mired in the past.

Well, at least I'm not ignorant.

What bore gaging method is best for measuring out-of-round, air or star?

I got a real chuckle about the star guage. It is nothing more than a pin that they ran through the barrel to feel loose spots in the barrel, NO MORE!!! It is obsolete in todays barrel world! It does not know out of round or anything about the grooves. An air guage does not measure barrel land or groove diameter. It compares a known dimension to the reading that you get in the barrel.
Butch

quote:

Originally posted by butchlambert:
I got a real chuckle about the star guage. It is nothing more than a pin that they ran through the barrel to feel loose spots in the barrel, NO MORE!!! It is obsolete in todays barrel world! It does not know out of round or anything about the grooves.

Tell you what, Butch. Call Kreiger Rifle Barrels (1-262-628-8558) then ask them who they buy the star gage measuring heads from that they modify so they can measure both bore and groove diameters with them. Then you'll know something about star gages that I don't. They may also tell you why they don't use air gages.

Bart, if you are calling Eddie Harren ignorant you are picking on the wrong guy. He knows more about accuracy, both gun and shooting wise, then you will if you live to be a thousand years old. Call me ignorant if you wish, and probebly be right, but be careful who you criticize of you will be made out to be the fool that you are publicly.

Bob,
This is like the rest of Bart's post. Might as well quit responding as he will always have a different answer to try to stir the DO Do.
Butch

Just cause ole Butch was a barrel peddler don't mean he knows anything about star guages. HUH, PaPa?

quote:

Originally posted by b beyer:
Bart, if you are calling Eddie Harren ignorant you are picking on the wrong guy. He knows more about accuracy, both gun and shooting wise, then you will if you live to be a thousand years old.

What qualifies Eddie Harren to know more than I do? Are the benchrest shooting discipline folks the last or only word in accuracy, both gun and shooting wise?

Bart, I have shot with Eddie, and have a good idea of just how savvy he is on shooting matters. When he, or anyone else, come out with B.S. stories like your machine rest being the cure all for rifle testing, when one can see how crude it is, your tiny groups at some astronomical distance, your spouting off about full length sizing being the only way to get accurate ammo. and your compleat disregard for anybodys opinion but your own, I will say the same thing about and to them.

quote:

Originally posted by b beyer:
Bart, I have shot with Eddie, and have a good idea of just how savvy he is on shooting matters. When he, or anyone else, come out with B.S. stories like your machine rest being the cure all for rifle testing, when one can see how crude it is, your tiny groups at some astronomical distance, your spouting off about full length sizing being the only way to get accurate ammo. and your compleat disregard for anybodys opinion but your own, I will say the same thing about and to them.

I've never said that machine rest is a cure all for rifle testing.

I've never said full-length sizing is the only way to get accurate ammo.

I've never disregarded anybody's opinion.

But I've noticed one thing about many folks close to and inside the benchrest crowd; they cannot accept the fact that benchrest rifles are not the only super-accurate rifles on this planet. And they cannot accept the fact really tiny groups can be shot outside of a registerred benchrest match. And they often try making a mockery of anybody that does something better than them because they usually believe their game is the most accurate.

Bart

You're right, We benchresters do believe that we have the most accurate rifles on Earth. But, you'll find us ready to put our rifles where our mouth is.

I'll be more than happy to meet you at Gene Beggs' Tunnel in Odessa, Texas. Bring your rifles that are more accurate than a BR rig and I'll bring one of my BR rifles. Pretty simple to prove one way or the other, huh?

I think a challange is in order here. Bart, can you travel and how far will you be willing to travel to loose one of your most accurate rifles? Benchrest season starts in the northwest in April. Come on out and shoot with us. We get Colorado shooters from time to time.
Side bets are known to happen. Look at it this way, your load going home could be lighter.

Shelley, does no good. I offered to shoot him for 10 bucks a shot, and I would do the traveling. No use.