I'm planning on getting into long range shooting this summer. My question is.....which bullet would be better out of my 308, 155 or 168 grain? I've shot Hornady 168 match and it didn't like it as well as 165 SST's. I want to try berger and sierra bullets but am trying to decide between 168 and 155. I plan on starting at 600 and working my way out.

No experience with berger, plenty experience with SMK.

In a choice between the 168 and 155 SMK I would choose the 175 (no typo) SMK.

Here is some good info on the 308

http://www.6mmbr.com/308Win.html

I personally like the Bergers.

You could run ballistic programs on both bullet weights and compare the drop at extended ranges.

I'd try the flattest shooting first and try to find a load that works well. God Bless, Louis

I shot long range, NRA Long Range, for several years and it was generally accepted by most experienced shooters that the Sierra 168MK was not the bullet of choice for 600 and beyond. The 175MK works very well as does the 155Palma bullet, but the lighter one will require more attention to the wind. Common barrel twist for the 155 is 1/13, but my barrels were 12 and shot OK as well. Barrel length of 30" and the 12 twist gave me very good service with the Sierra 190's and definite advantage in the wind.
Never used Beger's, but they have a good reputation and see no reason why they would not work fine, but to me were a bit more money than the Sierras and saw no reason to change. Good luck!!

martin

The 175 are about the best for the long shots-as MFD alluded to, the SMK 168s were designed for 300 international competition, and they do well out to 600, but the higher BC bullets like the 155 Palmas (Sierra, Lapua) and the like are what is desired for going past 600 in a 308.

The 308 is accurate, but it does suffer from speed issues, hence the 155 Palmas (NOT plain 150-155 BTHPs from most makers, but true LR bullets) meet the BC (~.500) of the heavier 175s, 180s and up, but also allow more velocity.

Berger, JLK bullets (VLDs) and a few other makers can get you more BC from standard weights (175-190) as well-just won't be magazine length either, however.

The 175 Nosler and SMK are designed for mag lenth seating depths if that is important to you. It is not for LR target shooting-all rounds are loaded singley into the rifle.

Lapua scenar 155 gr. Got mine to 880 m/s. Dont expect going much farther than 600 meter, about 800 is what you can expect from a 308. My humble experience anyway.

STIG

Thanks for the responses, guys. I think I'll start with the 175's and see how they shoot. I can always try the 155's later on. I might work up some loads for my 300 RUM as well. I've been thinking of trying 210's out of that one.

quote:

Originally posted by stigonom:
Lapua scenar 155 gr. Got mine to 880 m/s. Dont expect going much farther than 600 meter, about 800 is what you can expect from a 308. My humble experience anyway.

STIG

Stigonom: What is your favorite load with the 155grs? COAL also.

Would point out that the Sierra 155 Palma bullet and other "palma" brands are for just that, the Palma Match which starts at 800 on to 900 and final range of 1000yds w/ 2 sighters and 15rnds for record at each stage or total of 51rnds for the match. No optics, mat, sling, micrometer/peep sights only. The 308 works well at all of those ranges w/ a good shooter.

You are very correct. The 308 in a proper Palma rifle (~30 inch 1-12 or so twist tubes, modern micrometer sights front and rear, and loads that push the 155 High BC bullets at around 3000 fps will hold the ten ring at 1000 yards. The International Palma game is limited to 155 (10g) bullets in 308/762 only, but both the 223/556 and 308/762 can be used in NRA "Palma" competitions in the US.

Perfect scores are not that uncommon in 8-9 & 1000 yards events these days with the lowly 308... Wind doping winds up being the deciding factor.

Now, for tactical puproses, the 308 is probably properly limited to about 800 yards as a man-killing machine, equipped with a proper telescope and such.

There are much better platforms for anti-personnel uses past that range than the 308-300 WM, 338 Ultra & Lapua, 416 Barrett/Chey-Tac, 50 BMG, or even a 500 lb JDAM....

Don't worry, Andrew, I don't plan on using it for anti-personnel, just making some steel go clang.

DennisH:
My load for lapua scenar 155gr is with Vitavuori N150.
I get best results with 46 grain, but as always start lower and work it up. I would say start wwith 43 grains. COAL in my rifle, kongsberg 393 with lothar walter barrel, was 71,3 mm.

STIG

You need to match your bullet weight to the twist rate in your barrel. A few bullet sites address bullet weight and twist rate. I have a Rem. 700, 1:12 and recommended .308 bullet weight is 168 to 172 gr. Army snipers with this gun use 175 gr.

Boat-tail seems to have a better ballistic coefficient. You need to understand BC for long range shooting. Google provides lots of links.

Another factor in ammo, besides weighing and putting everything into "lots," is figuring out your rifle's chamber and deciding what works best on bullet seating relative to the lands.

When you get much past 500 yds, wind factors begin to get complex. You may have different winds between you and the target. Learning to read flags is fundamental.

Temperature of your ammo, and your rifle affects groups. Also, develop a routine for cleaning and "fouling" the bore between groups. You need to "figure it out." There's no set routine.

Yeah, as a matter of fact, it IS "rocket science."

quote:

Originally posted by Brad from ND:
I'm planning on getting into long range shooting this summer. My question is.....which bullet would be better out of my 308, 155 or 168 grain? I've shot Hornady 168 match and it didn't like it as well as 165 SST's. I want to try berger and sierra bullets but am trying to decide between 168 and 155. I plan on starting at 600 and working my way out.

I know a lot of people here have given you some great advise, but the best will come when you tell us 1. what kind of gun/barrel. 2. Twist rate and 3.length! A starting point for type and weight can't even be established without this info..

155.5, 175, and 190 Bergers all shoot well in my gun. 28" Broughton 1/12 twist barrel.

The gun is a Rem. 700P. 26 inch tube with 12 twist I think. I've got 300 175 SMK now so I hope they shoot. If not, I'll try them out in my 300RUM. Thanks for everyones help.

Maybe this will help a little, came from an F class shooter:

Hello,
Over the years have shot a variety of powders with the Sierra bullets, but the one I settled on for dependability in matches is as follows:

155's 46.2gr of IMR 4064**

175's 44.2gr of IMR 4064

190,s 42.2gr of IMR 4064

** My older Sierra manual shows 48gr's max. on this bullet, but you would have to use a drop tube to get the charge in the case and more trouble than I wanted to get into plus w/ 30" barrel, velocity was right at 2950 w/46.2gr which will keep you supersonic at the 1000yd target.

Primers are Fed.210M, brass Lapua's. These loads came to my attention way back in the late 80's early 90's and having spoken with Sierra a few times, they advised me that these loads were considered their accuracy loads and had never been able to improve on them. Now with other powders, other brand of bullets, etc. now available that may not be the case, but those loads work very well for me with my particular rifles. Barrels are Krieger, 40X action, Jewell trigger, basic walnut Rem. Rangemaster stock, MarineTex bedded.
Should mention that you can nearly duplicate these loads with Varget for the two powders perform very similar(burn rate wise.) I do drop the .2 grain for whole numbers as shown above. Only issue I have with the 4064 is it is long stick type and does not throw well in powder dispenser, but use electronic dispenser for it. Varget will throw almost perfect for me in my Dillon 550 machine which is a real time saver. Quite a few of my fellow shooters would say that the 12 twist and 190's just would not work, but did for me and as mentioned big advantage in the wind. In like wind conditions it seemed to me the 190's had a one ring advantage over the 155's at 1000yds. Have been told by knowlegeable folks that the heavier bullets need to have more than two spins/turns in the barrel to add to stabilization in flight and the 190's in 30" as you can see will get 2.5 turns before exiting the bore. Glad to help anyway possible. Are you shooting F class or Prone/Sling Long Range??

Dennis,
Just noticed you reprinted my data to you and have no problem with that, but you could not have hurt me more had you stuck a stake in my heart by referring to me as an F class shooter!!
I have never shot in F class and if others do, that is fine with me, but get my scores the old fashion way, I earn them from a mat and sling and micrometer sights. I must admit that getting in prone and in the sling is more difficult for me than it was some 50 years ago, but I can still do it without assistance. Someday, probably sooner than I would like, I will end up being an F class shooter, but that day has not arrived yet. Just had to correct your reference to me as an F class shooter, no harm, no foul.

martin

I keep threatening to shoot an F-Class match but cannot force myself to do it. One day when I cannot see my front site, maybe then.

quote:

Originally posted by MFD:
Dennis,
Just noticed you reprinted my data to you and have no problem with that, but you could not have hurt me more had you stuck a stake in my heart by referring to me as an F class shooter!!
I have never shot in F class and if others do, that is fine with me, but get my scores the old fashion way, I earn them from a mat and sling and micrometer sights. I must admit that getting in prone and in the sling is more difficult for me than it was some 50 years ago, but I can still do it without assistance. Someday, probably sooner than I would like, I will end up being an F class shooter, but that day has not arrived yet. Just had to correct your reference to me as an F class shooter, no harm, no foul.

martin

Settle down and take a deep breath. Don't pull on the stake! My bad on the F class quote.

Your information to me was "greatly" appreciated and I am getting ready to load some and hopefully try them out tomorrow! I know many will benifit from your response and hopefully I will be the main one who does! I have learned a lot from this forum and one other and having people like yourself sharing advice/knowledge greatly helps and gives more confidence to us.

I love my sport, so far (don't hurt me) I have only shot F class! I shoot with two people who do it "the old fashion" way and they are awesome!

SO PLEASE FORGIVE ME, and hopefully you have more info you would like to share one day!

Take Care, Dennis

quote:

Originally posted by Mike70560:


I keep threatening to shoot an F-Class match but cannot force myself to do it. One day when I cannot see my front site, maybe then.

Well MIKE, I am ready to try some of these loads out on a few HOGS. Since your around the corner from me, when is the trip?

DennisH,
No offense taken at all, the subject of F Class shooting in the group of shooter/competitors I hang out with are always joking when one of us have a bad day at the matches, that we should take up F class. For many years using anything but sling for support in prone position was taboo match wise and in fact long ago, some ranges would use a wooden wedge to slide under your supporting arm to insure you were not "hugging" the ground. Whether it is A class or Z class is fine with me so long as it promotes the shooting sports, the more the better.
As for shooting critters, hogs, etc., with the Sierra MK's the factory does not suggest that use, but for thin skinned game, the results can be pretty dramatic. Friend of mine did shoot a doe with a 168MK at the base of the neck and it made a hole about the size of a gallon paint can and almost took it's neck off. Have no idea what it would do on a hog. I keep seeing you fellows in the South talking about hogs, are there that many running around? Is there a season or are they considered varmints/vermon and targets of opportunity?

Hogs are taking over the country! Seriously! There are TV shows like Discovery that cover the subject. They will tear up your property. Most Dear leases well let you go on the propert and shoot as many as you want!

There NOT legal game, they are considered a PEST. But their smart and sometimes hard to kill. They have very tough skin and it takes a heavy round to put them down.

I know Sierra does not recommened hunting with their bullets, but if it does that type of damage to a dear, it should be perfect for a HOG! Now I that I know this about SMK's, I will definetly load some for HOG hunting!

Thanks Again, Dennis

OK, sounds like a good hunting opportunity, but have heard as you mention that they are tough and don't know what that MK would do penetration wise, not much I imagine, but definitely would leave a blood trail I think.
I did shoot one some years ago w/ M14 loaded w/ MK's, 168's at very close range, some 15yds it turned out, and it went clear through him w/ sizeable exit hole. Worked fine that time so go figure?? Good hunting.

quote:

Originally posted by Brad from ND:
The gun is a Rem. 700P. 26 inch tube with 12 twist I think. I've got 300 175 SMK now so I hope they shoot.

I've got a Rem. 700VS (which is pretty much what you have only with a different stock) and it likes 175gr MKs and Varget sparked by Federal 210M primers.

Pushed at 2,600 FPS it'll stay supersonic at 1,000 yds. out of your 700P.

Thoughts to consider.

With a 308 Win/7.62x51.

The main issue is keeping your bullets Supersonic to 1000 yards.

To do this: [as a General Rule]:

With the 155 Palma, you need at least 30" barrel, and warm loads.

With a 24 to 26" barrel, the 168 Match bullets will not do it all the time, actually not most of the time...

With 22 and 24, and 26" barrels the 175gr Sierra Matchking was designed to stay supersonic to 1000 yards, most of the time, with loads above 2600fps muzzle velocity.

The OLD Sierra 180MK was a great 1000 yard bullet in 22, 24, and 26 " barrels.

The NEW 180 Sierra MK will not stay supersonic Most of the time with 22, 24, or 26" barrels.
The shape and boattail was changed.

The 190 and 200 MK will stay supersonic with 24 and 26" barrels, one in ten twist.

The OLD Lake City 172 Match load will stay supersonic to 1000 in 22, 24, and 26" barrels.
One in twelve, to one in ten inch twist.

The 168 MK work great to 800 yards, so with a regular rifle past 800 the 175 MK is the bullet of choice...

If I was building a rifle I would get a one in ten or a one in 11 inch twist.

And then there are the Berger VLD's.

With a one in ten twist the 185 is primo...

If I was going to shoot an animal at long range with a 308 I would use a Nosler Ballistic Tip, either a 165/168 or a 180.

I have shot a couple of pigs, and a turkey, all under 50 yards, and a coyote at 175 yards with factory Federal 168 Match [Sierra bullet], baised on that I do not consider the Sierra Matchkings a Hunting bullet.

SIERRA DOES NOT EITHER, and they make the bullets.

For a long range factory hunting load take a look, and test the factory Winchester 168gr Ballistic Silvertip load.

quote:

Originally posted by DennisH:

quote:

Originally posted by Mike70560:


I keep threatening to shoot an F-Class match but cannot force myself to do it. One day when I cannot see my front site, maybe then.

Well MIKE, I am ready to try some of these loads out on a few HOGS. Since your around the corner from me, when is the trip?

Dennis,

Do you shoot at Palo Alto in Donaldsonville? They run a very nice 600 yard only match the first Saturday of the month. Prone and F-Class. Some pretty good shooters go there. Even Don Geraci of benchrest fame shoots F-Class in Palo Alto.

Anyway I been spending plenty of time in your neck of the woods in Baker.

Yes Mike,

I am a member of Palo Alto!!!! Just wrote out my dues check earlier, LOL.

I have shot with several, and yes, their dayummm good! I have put many a round down the 600 yds range!

I have talked to Don about building me a 308. Currently I am putting together a 6.5x47L, just about got it ready!

But I am ready to shoot something besides paper!

Do you shoot at Palo Alto?

quote:

If I was going to shoot an animal at long range with a 308 I would use a Nosler Ballistic Tip, either a 165/168 or a 180.

I have been hogs hunting a few times, I truely believe in NBT's, but it will take a litte more to drop a good size hog! Their pretty tough to penatrate and the NBT's explode pretty quick!

Now a 180gr NBT might blow the head off a small pig! I have seen a few dear hit with them!

I use Berger 175 and 190gr hunting bullets! They do the job!

I have chest shot "several" wild pigs in the 175 to 285lb [weighed], most under 50 yards with 308 Winchester Factory 168gr Ballistic Silvertips, with excellent results.

When I "walk them up" I like to use Federal 165gr Trophy Bonded Bearclaws, but shoulder and behind the shoulder shots with the BT have been great killers.

You said 1-12 twist? Berger 155.5 full bore, with 46.5gr of varget win brass, CCI BR primers!
And dont look back!!!

My gunsmith recommended the 190-grain Sierra MatchKing for my 1:10 twist 300WSM. I went to the 180-grain variety. Accuracy is pretty damned good using 65 grains of H4831SC or 65 grains of RL-22...

Piggies at distance--try

180 Scirocco, 44.3 Varget, 210M

or

Berger 185 Hunting VLD , 44.2 Varget, 210M

(of course-- always start lower in a different gun)

quote:

Originally posted by DennisH:

quote:

If I was going to shoot an animal at long range with a 308 I would use a Nosler Ballistic Tip, either a 165/168 or a 180.

I have been hogs hunting a few times, I truely believe in NBT's, but it will take a litte more to drop a good size hog! Their pretty tough to penatrate and the NBT's explode pretty quick!

Now a 180gr NBT might blow the head off a small pig! I have seen a few dear hit with them!

I use Berger 175 and 190gr hunting bullets! They do the job!

I've shot several truck loads of hogs with .308 165 BT out of a .300 WM, they all died quite satisfactorily. That said, I'd like a little tougher bullet if I was going on a dedicated hog hunt, a Nosler partition, or TBBC are excellent, but, it doesn't take much to kill a hog if you shoot them in the right spot. (Most people who aren't shooting that many of them would have you believe that wild hogs somehow shed bullets, that is BS, they die easily if you shoot them where they live, heart shot deer will go much farther than heart shot hogs, for instance) BTW, the reason I killed so many with the BTs was that I was usually deer hunting and that was the load I was using at that time. Many, but not all of the BTs gave me through and through shots, even through the shoulders at times on pigs up to about 200 pounds. If they were really close, under 25 yards, the velocity would tend to make them fragment more and faster, not surprisingly.