Hello,
I have been lurking for a while and settled on the .308 Savage Varmint 12FV. This rifle has a 26" heavy barrel with a 1-10 twist. What bullets will this barrel handle? I chose the .308 because what I read here and the large selection of 30cal bullets. I will use this rifle for under 600yrd. targets.

TIA

TonyB

A 1 in 10 should handle just about any bullet you want to shoot up to and including the long VLD types.

Ray

A 1:10 twist in a .308 Win. barrel is ideal for 200-gr. boattail match bullets fired at about 2450 fps. Lighter bullets will stabilize well only if they're very well made; i.e., balanced and spin true without coning or nutating. I'd suggest staying with heavier bullets if best accuracy is your objective.

Best accuracy with the various bullet weights used with maximum loads in the .308 Win. cartridge use the following twists:

240-gr., 1:8
220-gr., 1:9
200-gr., 1:10
190-gr., 1:11
180- to 168-gr., 1:12
155-gr., 1:13
140- to 120-gr., 1:14
110-gr., 1:15

I shoot a Rem 700 VSSF in .308 quite a bit, and find the 155 Palma and 168/175 Sierra offerings to do very well. Contrary to some beliefs, you cannot overstablize a bullet. Do not fret in trying lighter bullets, but for 600 yards, I would not go below the 155's.

Bart B

I don't think I would worry about over-stabilizing ANY bullet in a 308W. Probably can't shoot them fast enough to cause any problems. Also, most all of today's bullets, whether custom or commercial made, are well balanced and not subject to nutating (wobbling) as was common years ago. Whether or not they are prone to coning I can't say because I have no idea what that means. It MAY be true that a faster twist MAY not produce the optimum accuracy but, c'mon, it's a 308W.

The old-wives tale of overstabilization is largely a myth given today's quality bullets. I shoot long range benchrest and when my 8 twist 6mm barrels are no longer competitive I use them for live varmint shooting with bullets as light as 60 grains and they will still hold Minute Of Prairie Dog.

Ray

Great! Thanks for the reply's. I will probably start with the 155's and go up from there.


TonyB

I shoot 178amax out to 1000yds in my 12 twist Rem700.

quote:

Originally posted by 308Sako:
Contrary to some beliefs, you cannot overstablize a bullet.

That may be true, whatever stabilization means. But you can spin them too fast.

There may be one or two bullets out of a box of a hundred that are perfectly balanced. The faster the bullet spins, the more the centrifugal forces caused by its unbalance will make it jump away from the muzzle axis as it clears the crown. To say nothing of the unbalancing caused by the bullet being swaged down in diameter and lengthened by going through a barrel whose groove diameter is smaller than the unfired bullet's diameter. And there's some unbalance cause by the bullet deforming a bit as it's slammed into the rifling.

It's much like a wheel/tire on your car that's a bit unbalanced. Up to some speed, there's no thumping felt or heard. Going above that speed with the wheel/tire spinning faster, the thumps and shimmies become noticeable.

Excellent explanation Bart B

quote:

Going above that speed with the wheel/tire spinning faster, the thumps and shimmies become noticeable.

And they often quit shaking at higher speeds.

If my .308 with 1:10 likes/needs 200grn bullets, what would bullets below 150 grns do? How low can I go before I have accuracy problems? What do most F-Class shooters use for the long ranges? A 200grn would probably recoil like a mule! I guess I'm trying to find a way to reduce the recoil. It's been years since I have shot(kids finally gone) and I'm not sure how the old body will like a sore shoulder!

quote:

Originally posted by ireload2:
And they often quit shaking at higher speeds.

Physically impossible. The out-of-balance condition still exists. At higher spin rates, the centrifugal forces are greater just like kinetic energy keeps going up with bullet velocity.

Here's what happens that makes the out-of-balance wheel/tire thump and shimmy seem to go away as the car speeds up. At higher speeds, the wheel/tire frequency gets further away from the car's resonant frequency. A car's resonant frequency is fixed but the wheel and its tire spin rate changes directly with speed over the road; if the road speed doubles, so does the thump frequency. The same out-of-balance wheel/tire on a 3000 pound roadster will be first felt at a different road speed than on a 6000 pound sport utility vehicle.

quote:

Originally posted by RetiredFire:
If my .308 with 1:10 likes/needs 200grn bullets, what would bullets below 150 grns do?

They will shoot about 20 to 30 percent larger groups

quote:

How low can I go before I have accuracy problems?

That depends on two things; how well you shoot and how acurate the rifle is to begin with. I wouldn't go below 190-gr. bullets in a 1:10 twist .308 Win.

quote:

What do most F-Class shooters use for the long ranges?

6mm or 6.5mm bullets shot from a necked down .308 Win. size cases are popular. The 6.5-.284 is excellent.

quote:

A 200grn would probably recoil like a mule!

Not really. Especially if you add some weight in the butt stock so the rifle weighs about 12 pounds. Elderly people have shot 30 caliber magnums all day long using 190- and 200-gr. bullets without any problems at all.

quote:

Originally posted by Cheechako:
It MAY be true that a faster twist MAY not produce the optimum accuracy but, c'mon, it's a 308W.

What are you implying by this comment?

6mm is a .243. Can I use this for F-Class? I know nothing about the different classes, I suppose I should find out before buying a rifle. I really don't care what caliber, just so I can use it. Where can I find out what the different classes are and what calibers can be used?

Thanks for the replys

quote:

Originally posted by RetiredFire:
6mm is a .243. Can I use this for F-Class? I know nothing about the different classes, I suppose I should find out before buying a rifle. I really don't care what caliber, just so I can use it. Where can I find out what the different classes are and what calibers can be used?

Here's the NRA's rule changes covering F class:

http://www.nrahq.org/compete/rules/rul_hpr_06.pdf

Retired Fire, Strongly consider a .260 if you need to acquire the rifle. Way less recoil, and much better wind resistance. Based upon the .308 case, and easily made from Lapua .243 brass for maximum quality cases. Don't sweat the smaller stuff just yet. Get out there and shoot what you have.

quote:

Originally posted by RetiredFire:
Hello,
I have been lurking for a while and settled on the .308 Savage Varmint 12FV. This rifle has a 26" heavy barrel with a 1-10 twist. What bullets will this barrel handle? I chose the .308 because what I read here and the large selection of 30cal bullets. I will use this rifle for under 600yrd. targets.

TIA

TonyB

You won't know what your rifle shoots well until you shoot it. All the rest is guessing, some educated, and some just BS. As to barrel twist, consider that one of the best Palma shooters in the world uses a 1:10" bore to shoot 155 grain bullets. Gee, so much for theoreticals...

That twist is the perfect .308 setup in my opinion. You should be able to shoot (well-made) lighter varmint bullets all the way to 190-200 grain Sierra Match Kings (for example). Now, enough of the questions. Get out there and shoot it, and tell us how it does.

Nate - I will when I find a range close to me. I didn't realize finding a 3,4,5,600 yrd. ranges could be a problem.... The DNR (Department of Natural Resources) have 1 & 200 yrd. ranges at most of the Wildlife areas but nothing longer.

Thanks for all the replys. I have looked at the 260, but will probably stick with a 308.

quote:

Originally posted by Nate Haler:
As to barrel twist, consider that one of the best Palma shooters in the world uses a 1:10" bore to shoot 155 grain bullets. Gee, so much for theoreticals...

I know about him. He's probably the only person in the world shooting those bullets from a 1:10 twist barrel in Palma matches, too.

When I was on the US Palma Team and talking about barrel twists with folks from all over the world, we all thought it was interesting that people shooting millions of rounds of ammo with 145- to 175-gr. 30 and 31 caliber bullets from the military cartridges using them at all ranges up to 1000 yards, it took over 50 years to convince some of the "experts" that a 1:12 or 1:13 twist (depending on muzzle velocity and actual bullet weight) is better for accuracy than the 1:10 twist they all started out with. Some folks just take longer than others to learn what's best. Gee, so much for reality...

I would recomend you stick with bullets in the 190 gr and higher.though case capacity with the 308 will be a major factor in the velocity with higher grain bullets.you may want to look at the VLD bullets in the 190 grn range from Berger.they don't require high velocities and have much higher BC than conventional ojives like the sierra 190s.

Hello,
Good discussion on the tried and true 308. The last Palma Rifle I had built used a Krieger SS barrel, 1/12twist, 30" long, Rem. 40X action, Jewell trigger, wood Master Class stock, Warner rear sight, Anshutz front w/ CC post insert, .5 magnifier in rear of front sight.
Would use the 155 SMK in days of low wind, moderate wind, 175's and stronger winds, 190's. Recoil seemed the same to me, but can say from my experience the 190's routinely turned in the best performance. Not uncommon for that load/rifle combo to clean the 600 w/ final scores in the high 590's w/ 50% or more X's. Many told me that the rifle would not shoot the 190's worth a damn!! Shot good enough to make High Master with them, so I did not worry all that much about the science involved at the time. Interesting reading though. If interested, brass was Lapua, Federal 210M's, naturally Sierra bullets, and IMR 4064 powder with two grains different for each of the bullet weights. 42.2,44.2, and 46.2 for the 155's. May not work for you at all, but used for many a year.

My 1000 yard gun has a 1 in 12 Hart and is so accurate with 175gr Sierra's it's scary.