Since airlines have been told to secure the cockpits against entry from the cabin, three airliners (maybe more, I'm only aware of 3) have crashed, killing all onboard - due to the fact that crew or passengers could not enter the cockpit to prevent the crash.

I am not aware of any instance where an airliner has been saved from a crash by the locked doors.

Time to rethink what was in my opinion a poorly thought measure taken in a knee-jerk reaction.

All security is knee jerk, otherwise we wouldn't be giving up our nail files and cork screws.

Grizz

Being able to have a generally secured cockpit was not the major problem in the case of the GermanWings crash,
its was more about the PIC that was able to override/totaly deny, the other pilot his option to code access re-enter the secured cockpit.

That has been somewhat solved, with airlines now insisting on a procedure where a pilot can no longer be let alone in the cockpit.

I don't understand the thought process behind locking the cockpit door to prevent unauthorised entry.

What is the cockpit crew going to do if hijackers, who ever they maybe, hold a knife or gun to the head of a member of the cabin crew or a passenger threaten to execute them and then carry out those threats if the door is not unlocked. It is a typical hostage situation with plenty of hostages readily available who cannot escape. Unless the hostage taker can be talked down, the only other option is to take them down. A locked cockpit door will achieve nothing other than keeping the innocent out.

Id rather have the airline pilots in a secured cockpit maintaining control of the aircraft in such crisis,
as opposed to some terrorists who might plan to take over the cockpit and crash the passenger loaded bird into a bustling city populous.

better a knife or gun to the head of an air stewardess outside the locked cockpit, than one to the heads of the pilots inside the cockpit.

quote:

I don't understand the thought process behind locking the cockpit door to prevent unauthorised entry.

You are 100% correct in this statement. You don't understand the whole concept. After 9-11 the whole game changed. The concern is not allowing the bad guys to gain access to the airplane to use it as a weapon of mass destruction against ground targets. The people inside are not the concern anymore.

Sorry but that is the cold hard truth.

quote:

Originally posted by surestrike:

quote:

I don't understand the thought process behind locking the cockpit door to prevent unauthorised entry.

You are 100% correct in this statement. You don't understand the whole concept. After 9-11 the whole game changed. The concern is not allowing the bad guys to gain access to the airplane to use it as a weapon of mass destruction against ground targets. The people inside are not the concern anymore.

Sorry but that is the cold hard truth.

I actually said I don't understand the thought process, I do however understand the reason why the locked cockpit door was introduced, but the thought process is still flawed as I wonder just how long the pilots would hold out keeping the door locked if a terroist threatens and then starts to carryout executing crew and passengers or threatens to detonate a grenade in the cabin which of course would be curtains for the aircraft anyway. I'm pretty sure the pilots will come round to realising negotiation maybe the better outcome under the circumstances.

As I said the only proper soluton is to take out the terroists, carry armed highly trained and efficient sky marshals with the proper ammo to take out a human target without damaging the aircraft.

A locked cockpit door on an aircraft hasn't a snow balls chance in hell of preventing fanatical terroists carrying out atrocities, hasn't that been proved enough already?

I'm sorry to say the thought process as most knee jerk reactions are is badly FLAWED.

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:

... detonate a grenade in the cabin which of course would be curtains for the aircraft anyway.

???

There are several instances on record where a hand-grenade[or similar] has been denotated on inflight passenger jets,
and it didnt result in curtains for the aircraft and people onboard.

1969 Philipine Airlines- gelignite exploded in lavatory,
= plane landed safely.

1970 Philippines Airlines- grenade exploded in cabin,
= plane landed safely

1972 Air Manila- grenade explodes in aircraft, plane
= lands safely.

1972 EL AL Israel Air - 200grams explosive detonates in luggage area[ a grenade holds about 180 grams]
cracks rear door/puts hole in luggage hold
= plane lands safely

1972 Ethiopian Air- grenade explodes in first class section,
= plane lands safely

### and various other incidences were HED explosives have detonated inflight, but still resulting in the
the aircraft landing safely.

course if any future terrorists were able to get into an unlocked flight deck,
and trigger a grenade or some other HED device inflight or just shoot the pilots,
i don't see much chance of the jet then landing safely.

quote:

I'm pretty sure the pilots will come round to realising negotiation maybe the better outcome under the circumstances.

I don't know if terrorists exploding a grenade on the passenger cabin side and /or shooting some passengers,
is incentive enough for the pilots to then open the cockpit door for them...The end result could be a lot
worse for many more innocent people in the aircraft and on the ground, if they did.

quote:

I'm pretty sure the pilots will come round to realising negotiation maybe the better outcome under the circumstances.

That used to be the technique used for Hi jacking. 9-11 changed the thought process. You can't negotiate with a jihadist on a suicide mission.

The Israelis have the most effective methods which I will not detail on a public forum.

Something to note about Israels El Al:

- they have not one , but TWO cockpit security doors to prevent unauthorised entry.
- such system was in place decades before the events of 911.
- first door has keypad code access, - but the second door can only be opened by those in the cockpit.
- the first door must close before the second will open.
- Those entering must first be identified by the captain or first officer
- El Al pilots are X Israel Airforce trained in various anti-hijack procedures
- cabin crew are X military trained personnel.

Sept. 1970, terrorists tried to storm the cockpit of an El Al flight from Amsterdam to NY,
The El Al pilot responded by placing the aircraft into a nosedive, creating zero gravity,
knocking the hijackers over. In the confusion an air marshal then shot one of them dead.
The other assailant who tried to detonate a grenade, was successfully restrained.

Even if terrorists did get into the cockpit, El Al have an advanced positive ID code system separate from the
aircrafts transponder....which requires pilots on incoming El Al aircraft to separately identify themselves on approach to Ben Gurion.

El Al have video monitoring of passengers which can be viewed by the pilots.
In addition, there are video signals of the passenger cabin that are sent to ground stations for the monitoring
of onboard passengers.

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:

As I said the only proper soluton is to take out the terroists, carry armed highly trained and efficient sky marshals with the proper ammo to take out a human target without damaging the aircraft.

Each day there are over over 100,000 flights around the world. Every flight cannot be covered by Air Marshals. It is too expensive and logistically impossible.

The locked cockpit door prevents the atrocity of future 9/11 style attacks. The passengers and crew behind the door may be sacrificed in order to put the plane on the deck under the control of the pilots.

"A locked cockpit door on an aircraft hasn't a snow balls chance in hell of preventing fanatical terroists carrying out atrocities, hasn't that been proved enough already?"

Not sure what you reference. It has prevented attempted breaches and is the last line of defense. The passengers and cabin crew are actually the first line of defense. The Paris train attack last week is an example of what has to happen in the event of an attempted terrorist takeover.

Be ready and don't be a sheep. If you are a sheep, the terrorists will treat you like one. It is a war against civilization and each of us needs to be prepared to defend it.

There are other measures as well