None of your hissing jets for me. It took a virtuoso's touch just to start these things without fouling all the plugs, setting them on fire, or blowing the exhaust stacks off the engine onto the ramp!

http://vimeo.com/16117810

I know I'm nitpicking, but...

quote:

Here is a first start after overhaul of a 4360. 28 cylinders, 7 magneto's, 56 spark plugs. This engine will go on a Corsair when finished.

The R-4360 wasn't original equipment on any WWII aircraft. The Corsair came with a P&W R-2800.

I suppose maybe you can jam an R-4360 into the engine bay of a Corsair.

But pilots already had enough problems trying to figure out what was in front of them as they taxied around, trying to see over that long nose with just the 18 cylinder engine. Not to mention the tribulations they had trying to bring it aboard the boat at first.

Now somebody's sticking an engine with 10 extra cylinders on the front of one of those?

"Goodyear produced a number of Corsair models identical to the Vought models. But since it was easier to interrupt Goodyear production than Vought, some experimental models were also constructed. Most notably the F2G series which featured an entirely new engine; the Pratt-Whitney R-4360-4 "Wasp Major". The airframe received significant alterations in order to mount this engine. The Wasp Major could deliver 3,000 hp (2,238.8 kW) for take-off and 2,400 hp (1,791 kW) at 13,500 feet (4,114.8 m). Top speed was 431 at 16,400 ft (4,998.7 m). It was armed with four .50 cal. (12.7 mm) Browning machine guns with 300 rounds per gun, and could carry two 1,600 lb (725.8 kg) bombs on wing pylons. The F2G-1 was the land based version, while the F2G-2 was the carrier model. Although hundreds were on order by August 1945, only 5 examples of each were built due to cancellations at the end of hostilities. All ten of these were sold as surplus, and a few could be found at various air races around the country after the war."

Again, I'm nitpicking. The aircraft that Goodyear produced weren't exactly identical to the aircraft that Vought produced.

The idea behind the fact that the Navy's aircraft designation system included a manufacturer's code letter, sequence number, subvariant number, was to aid with the maintenance.

For instance, a GM-built FM-1 Wildcat was different from a Grumman F4F-4 Wildcat.

Beautiful ... I would like to see it mounted on the aircraft.

quote:

Originally posted by China Fleet Sailor:
Again, I'm nitpicking. The aircraft that Goodyear produced weren't exactly identical to the aircraft that Vought produced.

The idea behind the fact that the Navy's aircraft designation system included a manufacturer's code letter, sequence number, subvariant number, was to aid with the maintenance.

For instance, a GM-built FM-1 Wildcat was different from a Grumman F4F-4 Wildcat.

I agree - you're nit picking. I can give you a 'for-instance' to chew on for awhile if you like. We flew two A/C with P&W 2800 engines but toatl different one from the other - the CV440 and the DC-6b. And we also flew two A/C with the Curtis Wright 'Cyclone' R3350 and boy, they were vastly different - the old "Dumbo" C46 had a very early version of the 3350 while the DC-7 had the last (I think) version of the 3350 complete with PRT and etc. Really a world of difference between them and yet the same engines in both cases - certainly not interchangable!
I think you could make the case in any design type that evolved over the course of events as did the 'Corsair' - look at all the different variants of the FW190 - that beastie flew with both an in-line and a radial engine! And it was primarily built by Focke-Wolfe but also by Ago, Arado, Fieseler, Mimetall, Norddeutsche Dornier and maybe some others. Now that is quite a diference, n'est ce pas? And don't forget the Spitfire - that little darling at the end of WWII was radically different than the "Spitty" that flew during the Battle of Britain.

Aviation Porn.... My cousin saw one that was cut-away so you could see the innards and how the pistons fit between each other in the spiral and he about had a moment...

quote:

Originally posted by TrapperP:

quote:

Originally posted by China Fleet Sailor:
Again, I'm nitpicking. The aircraft that Goodyear produced weren't exactly identical to the aircraft that Vought produced.

The idea behind the fact that the Navy's aircraft designation system included a manufacturer's code letter, sequence number, subvariant number, was to aid with the maintenance.

For instance, a GM-built FM-1 Wildcat was different from a Grumman F4F-4 Wildcat.

I agree - you're nit picking. I can give you a 'for-instance' to chew on for awhile if you like. We flew two A/C with P&W 2800 engines but toatl different one from the other - the CV440 and the DC-6b. And we also flew two A/C with the Curtis Wright 'Cyclone' R3350 and boy, they were vastly different - the old "Dumbo" C46 had a very early version of the 3350 while the DC-7 had the last (I think) version of the 3350 complete with PRT and etc. Really a world of difference between them and yet the same engines in both cases - certainly not interchangable!
I think you could make the case in any design type that evolved over the course of events as did the 'Corsair' - look at all the different variants of the FW190 - that beastie flew with both an in-line and a radial engine! And it was primarily built by Focke-Wolfe but also by Ago, Arado, Fieseler, Mimetall, Norddeutsche Dornier and maybe some others. Now that is quite a diference, n'est ce pas? And don't forget the Spitfire - that little darling at the end of WWII was radically different than the "Spitty" that flew during the Battle of Britain.

Your "for instance" is wide of the mark. I'm not talking about an aircraft design evolving over time. Obviously, Grumman's did; the F4F-3 was different from the F4F-4. That's why it had a different sub-type code, or for that matter the why Spitfire's came in a bunch of different marks.

The GM FM-1 Wildcat wasn't an evolution the Grumman F4F-4 Wildcat design. It was the F4F-4 design. The first variant of the Wildcat GM built was simply a continuation production of the fourth variant Grumman had been producing when they stopped so they could build the Hellcat. Despite the fact GM copied the same design as the F4F-4 (as they had to; they had never built a Navy fighter), the planes that ended up rolling out of GM's factories were not at all the same. The aeronautical engineers had nothing to do as to why. They weren't changing the design. The manufacturing engineers had everything to do with it.

Every single manufacturer would have to make at least some changes partly because they had different assembly-line processes. The goal of the USG wasn't to retrain GM workers in how to build a machine "the Grumman way." Or reconfigure Goodyear Aerospace's plants so they functioned like Vought's. The goal was to get planes in the air.

Another reason was there was a lot of manufacturing capacity sitting idle when commercial production was halted; that's why GM started it's Eastern Aircraft Division. To win government contracts as they were out of the car business for the duration of the war. It simply wouldn't make sense for Goodyear operating out of Akron to use the same suppliers that Connecticut-based Vought was using. Even if the govenment thought it would have been a good idea to tie up transportation to ship the parts and subassemblies from the same subcontractors Vought was using Ohio, despite the fact there was perfectly good manufacturing capacity sitting idle relatively near Akron, in most cases those same subcontractors couldn't have built enough parts and subassemblies to support both Vought's and Goodyear's production. So Goodyear used local subcontractors, or at least different ones. Just like with the way GM manufactured whole aircraft, the arts and subassemblies these subcontractors were now building for Goodyear wouldn't be the exact same thing as the parts and subassemblies that Vought was getting from its suppliers.

None of the versions of the Corsair that Goodyear built were identical to anything that Vought built. None of the different manufacturers built identical aircraft to each other, even if they were built to meet the exact same governtment specification and were the same design. That's why the they Navy system had the manufacture's code; they all had different parts and mainenance manuals.

If you tried to use a parts or mainenance manual from any variant of the Goodyear-built FG Corsair to order parts or repair a purportedly identical version of the Vought-built F4U Corsair, you'd get the wrong parts or subassemblies and you couldn't get the job done.

The Navy used their own aircraft designation system for a reason. Maintenance. The aircraft were very, very different, at least from a maintainer's perspective.

They were also different from the pilot's perspective. Different manufacturing processes, parts, and subassemblies made a difference in how she flew.

You wouldn't have wanted to fly a Brewster-built F3A-1 Corsair in combat, for instance. Even though it was supposed to be "identical" to a Vought F4U-1.

Long and short of it is most Corsairs flew the 2800 and a few didn't. Splitting hairs is a waste of time, CFS. Just accept the facts for what they are and move on.

My dad owned a an FM-2 Wildcat when I was a kid. he bought from the USN at an auction in the late 60's. It had been used as target tower at Pensacola. I can tell from first hand experience that GM built and the Gruman built airplanes are almost identical. We used many Gruman parts on our FM-2.

In any case CFS you're wrong in your first post plain and simple. There was a FACTORY derivative of the Corsair that was R4360 powered. So these guys are NOT the first to throw an extra couple of feet onto an already long nosed and forward vision limited airplane. Goodyear did it back in the 40's.

I'll tell you what is amazing to me though is I've never seen such a new and polished 4360 before. That thing is beautiful.

BTW,

The R-4360 was exceptionally cranky and prone to fires.

Check out this FG-2 Corsair at the PHX air races..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqPPCCKAFp8

quote:

I'll tell you what is amazing to me though is I've never seen such a new and polished 4360 before. That thing is beautiful.

Isn't it?

Back in the early 1980's I was working on a PBY project called the Bird Innovator.



After we got it running up at Yolo County, we ferried it to Long Beach and flew it out of Herb Stewart's place. Herb had several canned R-4360's laying around and was getting an STC to install them on Thrushes, but the turbine Thrush came along and he stopped. I think he had more 4360's than any man alive at the time...

quote:

Originally posted by surestrike:
My dad owned a an FM-2 Wildcat when I was a kid. he bought from the USN at an auction in the late 60's. It had been used as target tower at Pensacola. I can tell from first hand experience that GM built and the Gruman built airplanes are almost identical. We used many Gruman parts on our FM-2.

In any case CFS you're wrong in your first post plain and simple. There was a FACTORY derivative of the Corsair that was R4360 powered. So these guys are NOT the first to throw an extra couple of feet onto an already long nosed and forward vision limited airplane. Goodyear did it back in the 40's.

I stand corrected; tell me what WWII squadrons were equipped with this beast?

quote:

Originally posted by China Fleet Sailor:

I stand corrected; tell me what WWII squadrons were equipped with this beast?

Here you go...

FM-1/-2 Wildcat
FM-2s from USS White Plains, in June 1944.

General Motors / Eastern Aircraft produced 5,280 FM variants of the Wildcat.[2] Grumman's Wildcat production ceased in early 1943 to make way for the newer F6F Hellcat, but General Motors continued producing Wildcats for both US Navy and Fleet Air Arm use. Late in the war, the Wildcat was obsolescent as a front-line fighter compared to the faster (380 mph/610 km/h) F6F Hellcat or much faster (446 mph/718 km/h) F4U Corsair. However, they were adequate for small escort carriers against submarine and shore threats. These relatively modest ships carried only two types of aircraft (along with the GM-built Avengers). The Wildcat's lower landing speed and ability to take off without a catapult made it more suitable for shorter flight decks.[19] At first, GM produced the FM-1, identical to the F4F-4, but reduced the number of guns to four, and added wing racks for two 250 lb (110 kg) bombs or six rockets. Production later switched to the improved FM-2 (based on Grumman's XF4F-8 prototype) optimized for small-carrier operations, with a more powerful engine (the 1,350 hp (1,010 kW) Wright R-1820-56), and a taller tail to cope with the torque.[16]

Tasked with supporting ground forces off Leyte, sorely under-armed planes from escort carriers such as Gambier Bay in the "Taffy" task groups found themselves up against a major surface fleet which they helped turn back in the Battle off Samar. Four FM-2 Wildcats from Shamrock Bay's Composite Squadron 94 (VC-94) helped shoot down a number of kamikaze planes attacking Laffey off Okinawa before running out of ammunition.

CFS,

The FM-1&2 was used concurrently anywhere the F4F was used. So any outfit that had F4-f's also had FM-1's and or 2's.The only way to tell the difference between an F4 and an FM was to look at the data plate and see if it said General Motors instead of Gruman. Same with a F4-F-8 and an FM-2. That Was the hole point of having contract manufacturers produce airplanes. They were identical and interchangeable in most cases. It would make zero sense to have a fleet of war planes that all needed separate parts from separate suppliers. The original builder gave the contractors the plans the jigs the tooling and the contractor built an identical airplane to the original. It was simply a matter of mass production it had nothing to do with design change between manufacturers.

Just exactly like all the different manufacturers who built identical rifles for the military. You can have an M-1 Carbine built by a dozen different companies that are all identical. Mass production.

Same as the Corsair and the Hellcat and every other airplane built during WW-II there were multiple companies building identical airplanes for the war effort. Some companies were tasked with building variants of the original as well.


If you were asking me what unit used the FG-2 Super corsair in WW-II the answer is none. It never got out of the testing stage. But it was built and flown by the factory so these guys are not in any way shape or form reinventing the wheel on building a super Corsair. They've been used in racing for sometime as well. Watch the video I posted.

quote:

Originally posted by jetdrvr:

quote:

I'll tell you what is amazing to me though is I've never seen such a new and polished 4360 before. That thing is beautiful.

Isn't it?

Back in the early 1980's I was working on a PBY project called the Bird Innovator.



After we got it running up at Yolo County, we ferried it to Long Beach and flew it out of Herb Stewart's place. Herb had several canned R-4360's laying around and was getting an STC to install them on Thrushes, but the turbine Thrush came along and he stopped. I think he had more 4360's than any man alive at the time...

Jet,

The picture you posted was taken at Cutter Aviation in ABQ. Dick Duran bought that thing and it sat there for years. I don't know what ever happened to it though? I used go and check it out all the time when I was a young CFI building time in NM.

quote:

Originally posted by surestrike:
If you were asking me what unit used the FG-2 Super corsair in WW-II the answer is none. It never got out of the testing stage. But it was built and flown by the factory so these guys are not in any way shape or form reinventing the wheel on building a super Corsair. They've been used in racing for sometime as well. Watch the video I posted.

I was asking about the F2G-1 Corsairs. I had the privilege of meeting some FM-2 drivers. Now gone. I know, at least, they (the aircraft) were accepted into service by the USN, made it to the fleet, and were actually used well before VJ or even VE day.

It's hard not to know about the FM-2 Wildcat boys if you've ever visited the Leyte Gulf memorial in downtown San Diego.

As far as the R-4360 goes, my initial reaction was that it didn't seem like a good idea in the Corsair. Don't get me wrong. I'm a hotrodder at heart. I'm all for sticking the biggest engine you can in the smallest frame you can get away with. I'm all for an extra thousand horsepower if you can get it at a price that won't cost you your life. It's like putting a hemi into a Dodge dart. If you can do it and still negotiate a freeway offramp without the wheels hitting the headers and forcing you off into the weeds, go for it. Just so it doesn't mean getting a little sideways means hitting the wall.

That's what occurred to me when I saw this thread on the R-4360. I don't think the Navy or Marines thought much of the idea, either, as the aircraft used into the '50s were still equipped with Pratt & Whitne R-2800s. It may be fine for air racers, just not for combat aircraft.

As for the rest, the Navy really did have different parts and maintenance manuals for aircraft built by different manufacturers. In any case, the Navy system of aircraft designation was declared obsolete in 1962 so it's sort of futile to defend it now.

quote:

Originally posted by surestrike:

quote:

Originally posted by jetdrvr:

quote:

I'll tell you what is amazing to me though is I've never seen such a new and polished 4360 before. That thing is beautiful.

Isn't it?

Back in the early 1980's I was working on a PBY project called the Bird Innovator.



After we got it running up at Yolo County, we ferried it to Long Beach and flew it out of Herb Stewart's place. Herb had several canned R-4360's laying around and was getting an STC to install them on Thrushes, but the turbine Thrush came along and he stopped. I think he had more 4360's than any man alive at the time...

Jet,

The picture you posted was taken at Cutter Aviation in ABQ. Dick Duran bought that thing and it sat there for years. I don't know what ever happened to it though? I used go and check it out all the time when I was a young CFI building time in NM.

Yeah, I met Dick at Titusville/TICO after he had bought it. He called Ernie Martin in Long Beach and asked for someone to fly it for him. I was with SAT at the time, but had some time off, so I drove up there and we cranked it up and flew it around the patch. It was a debacle. The airplane was terribly out of rig and the tower controller called smoke from the right main engine so I got it around as soon as I could and landed it. The gear would not retract, but Dick wanted to just get in the air to satisfy himself he hadn't wasted his money. The smoke was caused by a few bad valve guides in the right 1830. No problem, but the controls were really a mess. One aileron was out by about four degrees and man, could you feel it.

My jeans were ringed with salt encrustations after that trip around the pattern. The airplane was a real pig out of rig. No boost and very heavy. Really pissed me off, because I had driven up there with fantasies of putting her down in the Intracoastal a couple of times.

When she was running right, though, that was one really cool airplane.

The paint scheme in the picture was added after it reached it's final destination.

I have no idea where it is today. I heard a rumor that the two Lycoming GSO-480's had been removed and it had reverted to a straight P Boat, but I don't know how that could have been legally done, as Dr. Bird spent a fortune getting an STC issued for the airplane with the two outboards and substantially increased fuel capacity.

We flew the hell out of it in Southern California, several times landing on that hairy strip on the mountaintop on Catalina Island and a few times in the ocean off Avalon. I had a great time flying it and getting typed in it, but getting parts, as you might imagine, was a real bitch, even in 1981.

BTW, I just reconnected with Ernie Martin, the guy who trained me in it. He's 76, still living in Sand Point near Dr. Bird, and still owns and flies Donald Douglas's personal Aero Commander 560A, N90D, which I also have several hours in. If you look to the left of the photo, you'll see the trailing edge of the rudder of an HU-16 Albatross, N16HU. Ernie owns this airplane. He parked it two years ago when gas went to over five bucks a gallon. I have flown it on Lake Pend Orelle many years ago. It is seriously for sale and is likely the cleanest Albatross in existence. (Jimmy Buffett's may be cleaner, if he still has it.)

Oh, these are just entirely to fancy to have fun with.
Go make freinds with someone that owns an AN-2 and offer to pay for the gas.
Man that big old kite is a blast.

Cheers, John

Jet,

Dude is there anything you haven't flown?

I've got some float time in little stuff. I've got a buddy who has a Widgeon and has invited me to come out and get a MES rating in it. I guess I should before that opportunity is gone forever.


CFS

If I had a Corsair there is no friggin way I'd chop it up into a hot rod air racer. But the golden rule takes precedent in this case. I ain't got the gold so I don't make the rules.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by surestrike:
Jet,

Dude is there anything you haven't flown?

I've got some float time in little stuff. I've got a buddy who has a Widgeon and has invited me to come out and get a MES rating in it. I guess I should before that opportunity is gone forever.


I haven't flown most of the stuff I wanted to fly...the DC-6/7's, the Connies, and the C-46. Would have loved to have flown a C-97, also. I would of course, really enjoy a F4U or a Hellcat or a P-51, and a F9F would have been a real kick in the ass, and a P-38 would have been the ultimate, but I never really fantasized about those because they are rich man's toys and I've never been rich. I did get to sit in a P-38 that was in the paint shop in Lakeland when I delivered a Mooney 201 up there. Sweet. But I would have loved to have flown the Six and the C-46. The Connie is a wet dream. Also the Howard 350 and 500. Badass taildraggers. R-2800-CB 17's. Tried to get a 46 job in Miami with one of the tramp outfits there, but they wanted time in type and I didn't have any, just DC-3's. I have a fondness for the radials.

Get that MES. I don't have a SES and wish I could have gotten one. You'll have a ball.

quote:

Also the Howard 350 and 500. Badass taildraggers.

I have flown a Howard 500. Not much, but I got about an hour of maneuvering and three bounces in one.

A guy I knew was living in Reno and flying one for an eccentric millionaire. I called him up on a layover and he invited me out for spin in the Howard. And you are right that is one serious bad ass taildragger. Think about this, it'll outrun a Citation I.

Dee Howard was a genius. The 350 was faster than the 500 because it was unpressurized. And when you could get purple gas, (115/145) those 2800's would howl. I got to run up a 350 at FLL. Just idling, the thing was trying to jump the chocks. Huge paddle blades. A flying wet dream.

A buddy had 500 at Tamiami that was wiped out by hurricane Andrew. He also had a T-28C, which I did get to fly, that survived the storm.

The turboprops like the original Grumman Gulfstream eclipsed the Howards, but there is no executive turboprop or jet built that possesses the charisma of a Howard 500. Those big radials, huge four bladed Ham Standards, that three piece windshield, that long, graceful nose, the sleek pot belly and the twin tails just radiate sex appeal and masculinity. Ain't no Citation ever built carries vibes like a 500. You're a lucky guy, Greg.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Howard_500







I could be wrong, but I think this one is the last one left.

The bottom photo appears to have been computer generated.

Didn't the "Spruce Goose" have eight of these 'corn cobs' stuck on it? I've seen the thing and they had one of the engines set up as a cut away that was turned with an electic motor - even showed the 'spark' as it 'fired'. Interesting display for sure.

Yep. 4360's.

When we were flying the PBY out of LBH, we met a whole slew of amphibian people. The guy who maintained our bilge pumps was named Sparky Long, IIRC, 76 years old, and had been a young guy on the crew of the tug that pulled the Goose out into the bay for it's first and only flight.

We met several people involved with the project to preserve the airplane. I learned a lot on that project and had a wonderful time.

To put that in perspective - I was just reading about a FIAT which made a land speed record in 1924.For race cars then they often installed an aircraft engine . 21 liter, six cylinder ,4 valves and 4 plugs per cylinder .With a 4 to 1 compression it made 350 hp !! There's still a working version in UK.

BTW, buddy of mine in Sand Point just emailed me. He just attended Dr. Bird's 90th birthday party. Bob Hoover and Clay Lacy were there, along with several other luminaries. If I had been in Sand Point, I could have gone. That would have been one to remember.

When I first started with Delta in 1965 they had a few c-46 cargo planes and they had r2800 P&W engines at that time. I hired into the shop where engines were evaluated after premature removal. We also worked on the 2800s off the DC6s and CV-440s.

Delta did all their own mtc.on the DC-6 and Cv440 engines but a company called Miami Airmotive did the major rebuilds on the C-46 engines.

The c-46s operated by DAL were well used when they came there and had some chinese writing on the inside of the main cargo bay. I was told by a couple of guys who flew these things that they wore their raincoats(put on backward) when flying in heavy rain.

Don't know how wet the C-46 got, but it has been a standing joke for years that a precip report from a DC-3 captain was, "Light rain outside; heavy rain inside."