Greetings to all of the airplane wienies. I'm not hard core, but do appreciate good stuff. We will have a B-17 here in Seattle this week. It's been here before, flew over my house. It felt like the end of the world. Rides are available for $430. I would love to read your comments about this aircraft, esp. engines, horsepower, etc. Any old timers who flew these remarkable planes? Please share. Thanks
Brice

Imagine the sound when they were taking off and flying over the countryside in England.

Just one passed about 2 miles south of the house a while back and it was a distinct sound and loud.

Wonder what it sounds like on the ground when a really big group of 17's pass over at altitude.

Ask an older German?

quote:

Originally posted by TCLouis:
Wonder what it sounds like on the ground when a really big group of 17's pass over at altitude.

quote:

Originally posted by Nomo4me:
Ask an older German?

quote:

Originally posted by TCLouis:
Wonder what it sounds like on the ground when a really big group of 17's pass over at altitude.

My mother in law is an 'older German'... born in 1924. Her perspective and recollections of enduring bombing raids and loss of family and loved ones are truly heart wrenching.

During law school, when I was working as a ramp boy for a FBO in Macon, GA (about 1974?) a company was flying B-17s locally "bombing" fire ants with ground corn soaked in some kind of insecticide. It was some kind of a gov't contract. They'd fly a grid pattern all day long dropping the stuff from hoppers in the bomb bay. I fueled them from our trucks a couple of times a day. It got hot as hell up on the wing filling forever with a 2" hose.

One day a co-pilot was sick and since I had a commercial, multi-engine license, I got to go even though I pretty much just sat there. The first couple of hours were fun and I'm glad I did it, but your but gets sore after that.

I also got to fly a B-24 that the Confederate Air Force had back in the late 1960's.

The B-17 was light on the controls even with several tons of ant killer on board, but the B-24 was like flying a dump truck, at least IMHO.

quote:

Originally posted by rugeruser:
My mother in law is an 'older German'... born in 1924. Her perspective and recollections of enduring bombing raids and loss of family and loved ones are truly heart wrenching.

Yeah, it's too bad the German populace fell under the spell of the Nazi party. But they did.

quote:

Originally posted by Nomo4me:

quote:

Originally posted by rugeruser:
My mother in law is an 'older German'... born in 1924. Her perspective and recollections of enduring bombing raids and loss of family and loved ones are truly heart wrenching.

Yeah, it's too bad the German populace fell under the spell of the Nazi party. But they did.

Not all of the German people were NAZI's and even less were either supporters of, nor in favor of Hitler.

quote:

The B-17 was light on the controls even with several tons of ant killer on board, but the B-24 was like flying a dump truck, at least IMHO.

My late Uncle flew the B-24 for 15 missions, shot down on the 16th over what was then Yugoslavia. I can tell you that JudgeG echoed his comments as he often told me that he loved the B24 but it was a real 'Dog' to fly - his words, not mine. As nearly as I can quote him, he said you heaved around on the controls, then pulled harder, then really hard and waited to see what was going to happen. Something I don't remember enough about to relate but if you had a certain problem you had to fly the plane with both feet on the same rudder pedal, pushing for all you were worth to keep her flying.
I think about the guys that flew these planes, not just the bombers but all of the men and the planes, and I have to shudder. At one point I am told the Brits were putting young men aloft to fly and fight with 16 hours total time in type in the Spitfire! I cannot imagine this, I really cannot.

The B-17 arrived here in Seattle, and flew over my house a few times this week end. I ran out to watch every time I heard it. A great sight.

Rugeruser,
"Not all of the German people were NAZI's and even less were either supporters of, nor in favor of Hitler."
I do understand your comment. I hope you understand mine; it does matter whom you let gain power in your nation. We would do well to heed it. All it takes for bad men to rule is for good men to say nothing is the paraphrase...
Best regards,
dmw

quote:

Originally posted by Fury01:
Rugeruser,
"Not all of the German people were NAZI's and even less were either supporters of, nor in favor of Hitler."
I do understand your comment. I hope you understand mine; it does matter whom you let gain power in your nation. We would do well to heed it. All it takes for bad men to rule is for good men to say nothing is the paraphrase...
Best regards,
dmw

I'll allow you your beliefs.

It ain't easy doing something when the political structure includes secret police.

Bear in mind that that there were many attempts on Hitler's life, even from within his own ranks.

However to lay blame at the German populace as a whole is a travesty.

It's also been hinted that had the Allies lost the War, many of the leaders would have been tried as war criminals for attacking non combatants.

Hey, Judge.
I have a 92 year old aunt who was a civilian pilot contracted to fly both B-17's and 24's from their points of manufacture to various Army Air Corps delivery points. She flew both types for almost 4 years during WWII. Her recollection is the same as yours, although she never flew aircraft with any load beyond the fuel necessary for the mission. In her words, the 24 was far more "physical" to fly, and more demanding on the longer flights for the female pilots.

Sometime ago, someone here posted a 'diary' of a B-17 navigator from his departure from Nth America through several missions.

I downloaded it, but don't know how to post it back up.

It is a stunning insight into what those men endured even before crossing the English Coast on their way to a mission, and more so in terms of the 'matter of fact' observations during several missions.

quote:

Originally posted by rugeruser:

quote:

Originally posted by Fury01:
Rugeruser,
"Not all of the German people were NAZI's and even less were either supporters of, nor in favor of Hitler."
I do understand your comment. I hope you understand mine; it does matter whom you let gain power in your nation. We would do well to heed it. All it takes for bad men to rule is for good men to say nothing is the paraphrase...
Best regards,
dmw

I'll allow you your beliefs.

It ain't easy doing something when the political structure includes secret police.

Bear in mind that that there were many attempts on Hitler's life, even from within his own ranks.

However to lay blame at the German populace as a whole is a travesty.

It's also been hinted that had the Allies lost the War, many of the leaders would have been tried as war criminals for attacking non combatants.

No doubt about that; the winner makes the rules. One would hope WWII will be the last time seige techniques are used to demoralize a population.

I took a ride in one about 3 years ago. Great experience. War movies always emphasize the isolation of the ball turret and tail gunners, but the bombadier position seemed just as bad to me. He sat in front of and below the pilots. He crouched over the bomb sight. It seems like you are hanging out in the open- flak must have been terrifying for these guys.

quote:

During law school, when I was working as a ramp boy for a FBO in Macon, GA (about 1974?) a company was flying B-17s locally "bombing" fire ants with ground corn soaked in some kind of insecticide. It was some kind of a gov't contract. They'd fly a grid pattern all day long dropping the stuff from hoppers in the bomb bay. I fueled them from our trucks a couple of times a day. It got hot as hell up on the wing filling forever with a 2" hose.

One day a co-pilot was sick and since I had a commercial, multi-engine license, I got to go even though I pretty much just sat there. The first couple of hours were fun and I'm glad I did it, but your but gets sore after that.

I also got to fly a B-24 that the Confederate Air Force had back in the late 1960's.

The B-17 was light on the controls even with several tons of ant killer on board, but the B-24 was like flying a dump truck, at least IMHO.

JudgeG ... just counting time 'til I am again finding balm in Gilead chilled out somewhere in the Selous.

I remember those. I was Pharmacy Officer at Robins AFB 70-72, and was taking flying lessions via the aero club there, and occasionally got in a pattern behind them .

My brother in law finished law school at Mercer also, and still practices in Macon.

quote:

Originally posted by mrfudd:
I took a ride in one about 3 years ago. Great experience. War movies always emphasize the isolation of the ball turret and tail gunners, but the bombadier position seemed just as bad to me. He sat in front of and below the pilots. He crouched over the bomb sight. It seems like you are hanging out in the open- flak must have been terrifying for these guys.

A head-on attack was pretty much standard. For the Germans and Italians. That's why Boeing came out with the golf model, with the chin turret.

Until then, there wasn't much you could do from the front to stop a bunch of bullets from going all the way to the back.

The top turret wouldn't fire forward. It seems like an oversight I wouldn't have made.

quote:

Originally posted by China Fleet Sailor:

quote:

Originally posted by mrfudd:
I took a ride in one about 3 years ago. Great experience. War movies always emphasize the isolation of the ball turret and tail gunners, but the bombadier position seemed just as bad to me. He sat in front of and below the pilots. He crouched over the bomb sight. It seems like you are hanging out in the open- flak must have been terrifying for these guys.

A head-on attack was pretty much standard. For the Germans and Italians. That's why Boeing came out with the golf model, with the chin turret.

Until then, there wasn't much you could do from the front to stop a bunch of bullets from going all the way to the back.

The top turret wouldn't fire forward. It seems like an oversight I wouldn't have made.

Yeah... there are some gun camera footages on Youtube that show a a frontal attack... no return fire, and I sure as heck would not want to be in the cockpit at the time.

I know it's a B-24, but check what's happening at 5:07.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...75Ss&feature=related ouch.

Becauase of my background and marriage, I sort of have sympathies for both sides.. my godfather was awarded a DFC flying Spitfires over Britain, and later again over Yugoslavia, my wife's father and uncle were awarded similar accolades on their side - also as aviators.

When our young bloke was about five, we happened to be watching a war documentary, and he asked us who were the 'good' and who were the 'bad'... it was something his mother and I had never thought about.

Try answering that question... LLOLLOL

quote:

Originally posted by rugeruser:
Sometime ago, someone here posted a 'diary' of a B-17 navigator from his departure from Nth America through several missions.

I downloaded it, but don't know how to post it back up.

It is a stunning insight into what those men endured even before crossing the English Coast on their way to a mission, and more so in terms of the 'matter of fact' observations during several missions.

I think I was the one that posted it up originally. Go to http://downloads.hyperscale.co...fdiary_download.html and have a look, tell us if this is the one.
Best regards,
and

quote:

Originally posted by TWL:
Hey, Judge.
I have a 92 year old aunt who was a civilian pilot contracted to fly both B-17's and 24's from their points of manufacture to various Army Air Corps delivery points. She flew both types for almost 4 years during WWII. Her recollection is the same as yours, although she never flew aircraft with any load beyond the fuel necessary for the mission. In her words, the 24 was far more "physical" to fly, and more demanding on the longer flights for the female pilots.

The group of female pilots was called the Women Airforce Service Pilots — WASP.

I heard this story earlier this year when these women received honors for their work during the war. It was a touching story.

Listen to it here:

http://www.npr.org/templates/s...hp?storyId=123773525

Individual essays by the women here:

http://www.npr.org/templates/s...hp?storyId=124367587

quote:

Originally posted by TrapperP:

quote:

Originally posted by rugeruser:
Sometime ago, someone here posted a 'diary' of a B-17 navigator from his departure from Nth America through several missions.

I downloaded it, but don't know how to post it back up.

It is a stunning insight into what those men endured even before crossing the English Coast on their way to a mission, and more so in terms of the 'matter of fact' observations during several missions.

I think I was the one that posted it up originally. Go to http://downloads.hyperscale.co...fdiary_download.html and have a look, tell us if this is the one.
Best regards,
and

That's the one .... thanks.

quote:

Originally posted by rugeruser:
Yeah... there are some gun camera footages on Youtube that show a a frontal attack... no return fire, and I sure as heck would not want to be in the cockpit at the time.

I know it's a B-24, but check what's happening at 5:07.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...75Ss&feature=related ouch.

I was hesitant to throw these pictures up as it's a thread about B-17s, but since the thread seems to have died I don't think anybody would mind if I hijack it for a few minutes. The services eventually got around to solving the B-24s vulnerability to a frontal attack, too, just as they did with the Forts.



The Navy flew B-24s as long range patrol bombers, designated PB4Y. The plane in the background is a PB4Y Liberator. One of the first modifications they made was to install powered turrets in the nose and tail to deal with fast-moving air threats. The plane in the foreground is modified version purpose built to Navy specs, the PB4Y-2 Privateer. The most obvious modification is the single tail. It's fuselage was also streched several feet. You can see it has two top turrets, waist gun blisters like on the PBY Catalina, and you can get a better view of the nose turret.

Here's another view.



Some genius figured out that putting the waist guns in those blisters meant that theoretically the two guns could merge their fire about 30 ft below the aircraft, so they decided to save money and eliminate the belly turret. Just what those sailors were supposed to stand on to do this or how they were supposed to aim no one figured out. But they were low altitude patrol planes, not high altitude bombers so it didn't really matter.

The USAAF did something similar with the nose in its later variants, once the Liberator's vulnerability to attacks like the one in your video became too painful to ignore.

quote:

Originally posted by China Fleet Sailor:

The top turret wouldn't fire forward. It seems like an oversight I wouldn't have made.

I asked my uncle about this yesterday. He has 35 missions over Germany in a B-17 as a flight engineer and top turret gunner. He said the top turret would fire in all positions. He said it did have interrupters that kept you from shooting the tail and propellers.

Last month I got an hour and half ride in 909, a B-17 out of California. I rode from Yreka, CA to Medford, OR.