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| One of Us |
Looks like the Korean pilot wanted to see what a "ramp strike" in an airliner was like. 16 Crew and 290-ish pax aboard looks like most of them got out before the fire got rolling... No credible news on injuries or fatality counts yet I'm willing to bet large that the cause comes down to C.F.I.T. (aka "Pilot Error") If I provoke you into thinking then I've done my good deed for the day! Those who manage to provoke themselves into other activities have only themselves to blame. *We Band of 45-70er's* 35 year Life Member of the NRA NRA Life Member since 1984 | ||
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At least two fatalities as of an hour ago. He hit short for some reason. | |||
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News this am is that he was VFR and hit short. | |||
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SFO Rwy 28L glide slope out of service. It has been for some time. Not that should make any difference but it is a factor. | |||
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Pretty clear he came up short  Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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look like he was in the water for about 1000 feet before he hit the rocks! NTSB made a statement that the aircraft was well below it's calculated 137 kt approach speed before initiating a go around 1.5 seconds before impact. http://www.cnn.com/video/data/...tesy-fred-hayes.html | |||
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Based on an airspeed of 120 knots ( about 200 feet per second), to have hit the water 1,000 feet short he would have hit almost five seconds before the sea wall. Had that been the case, they would have never made it to the airport, it would have stopped in the water. Basic accident investigator math will dispel that claim, along with the flight data recorder read outs. | |||
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all the fancy new gadgets- Radar altimeters- to say the least- and- he still winds up low- and slow DuggaBoye-O NRA-Life Whittington-Life TSRA-Life DRSS DSC HSC SCI | |||
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I know nothing about flying, but it looks like the math might not apply in this case. The plane was nose up when it's tail hit the water and it looks like it was on the water 7 or 8 seconds before hitting the runway(I "assume" it hit the runway when it cartwheeled). Jason "You're not hard-core, unless you live hard-core." _______________________ Hunting in Africa is an adventure. The number of variables involved preclude the possibility of a perfect hunt. Some problems will arise. How you decide to handle them will determine how much you enjoy your hunt. Just tell yourself, "it's all part of the adventure." Remember, if Robert Ruark had gotten upset every time problems with Harry Selby's flat bed truck delayed the safari, Horn of the Hunter would have read like an indictment of Selby. But Ruark rolled with the punches, poured some gin, and enjoyed the adventure. -Jason Brown | |||
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Watching the video I count 7 seconds of water spray/rooster tail, before impact with the sea wall where he gets flipped up into the air. He was at TOGA thrust nose up as he had tried to initiate a go around, so he wasn't fully in the water but it looks like he was dragging the aft portion of the bottom of the fuselage in the water for about 1000' before contacting the rocks. Take a look at the video and see what you come up with. And of course the FDR will dispel or confirm what the video appears to indicate. | |||
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One thing that I found interesting was how the computer recreation was so different from the actual video footage. Jason "You're not hard-core, unless you live hard-core." _______________________ Hunting in Africa is an adventure. The number of variables involved preclude the possibility of a perfect hunt. Some problems will arise. How you decide to handle them will determine how much you enjoy your hunt. Just tell yourself, "it's all part of the adventure." Remember, if Robert Ruark had gotten upset every time problems with Harry Selby's flat bed truck delayed the safari, Horn of the Hunter would have read like an indictment of Selby. But Ruark rolled with the punches, poured some gin, and enjoyed the adventure. -Jason Brown | |||
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I find it interesting that all the talking heads and reports I've listened to, including passenger observations don't mention the flight contacting the water, but it is clear in the amateur video that the tail, at least was in the water for a looong ways before he hit the seawall. xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
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From now on I will check to see if the pilots are Korean. Too much Kim Chi...  "When you play, play hard; when you work, don't play at all." Theodore Roosevelt | |||
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It is also possible that we are seeing a rooster tail from jet blast. The tail may or may not be in the water for as long as it appears on the video. The FDR data will reveal what the exact profile and contact point with the water was.
To much cultural adherence to overt respect for authority and face saving. Unfortunately the Koreans have a long and disastrous history with fatal accidents in airplanes due to their cultural norms. It's well documented and it's an on going problem. Korean Airlines is or at least it was one of the most deadly airlines in the world do to crew interaction or the lack thereof issues. Kind of like this one... http://aviation-safety.net/dat...rd.php?id=19970806-0 Or this one.. http://www.airdisaster.com/reports/ntsb/AAR84-10.pdf Good explanation of the issues here. http://blogs.wsj.com/middlesea...n-and-plane-crashes/ | |||
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It will take some time for us to know what the actual DFDR read outs are. Even at idle thrust, those big motors will kick up a huge rooster tail, so I would not assume that they were dragging the tail in the water based on home videos. It's way too early to make any guesses about what happened, particularly when dealing with partial data releases by the NTSB. Don't think for a minute that politics will not be part of the official investigation. The known weaknesses of most foreign airline crews when it comes to basic stick and rudder skills is a serious problem for the industry. If the truth comes out that the non-expat (Aka; American, British, some European and Australian) pilots are that weak, it really causes lots of problems for the marketing departments of the worlds major network carriers. One of the few things my former union was good at was air safety, and everyone in the industry knows we do not have one level of safety across international borders. | |||
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The laws of physics always apply...if the airplane was at full thrust, with the nose that high and being 180,000 pounds below maximum takeoff weight, they would not have hit the wall/water but instead would have cleared the runway by a significant margin. Spool up time for those engines is somewhere in the 7-13 second time frame, they may have selected full thrust, but they were no where close to having it available. | |||
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Was going to post the same but Dave beat me to the punch! Short version, the flight crew names got pranked big time:  http://deadspin.com/pranked-tv...i-tu-lo-as-758955806 has some interesting comments. for every hour in front of the computer you should have 3 hours outside | |||
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Some seriously funny comments there. | |||
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| Moderator |
And the Korean news has been creative in reporting about the Southwest flight that had the nose gear failure at LGA:  You probably remember KTVU’s royal eff up with reading obviously fake Asian names for the pilots of the Asiana crash. Names like “Wi To Lo” and “Ho Lee Fuk”. It looks like a Korean news agency is having some fun at KTVU’s expense. After the landing gear failure of the Southwest flight at LGA they showed this graphic with American pilot names “Captain Kent Parker Wright”, “Co-Captain Wyatt Wooden Workman”. They even went as far as making up fake names for people to interview. Flight instructor “Heywood U. Flye-Moore” and skeptical passenger “Macy Lawyers”. Well played Korean TV, well played. for every hour in front of the computer you should have 3 hours outside | |||
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Not a nose gear failure, the plane was nosed in hard according to reports from pilots who watched the airplane crash right in front of them. | |||
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I just talked to one of the crew who were holding short of RWY 28L at SFO and watched the whole thing up close and personal. His impression was that the roster tail was a combo of thrust and the main gear dragging the 28L RLS sending high speed shredded tire and RLS parts into the water. He stated that the tail was NOT dragging in the water from his perspective. | |||
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A complete failure of basic airmanship.  | |||
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BINGO!! | |||
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CFIT Controlled Flight Into Terrain And I think the sea wall before the threshold counts as "Terrain" Pretty much what I said while firefighters were still "putting wet stuff on the red stuff" to fight the fire. If I provoke you into thinking then I've done my good deed for the day! Those who manage to provoke themselves into other activities have only themselves to blame. *We Band of 45-70er's* 35 year Life Member of the NRA NRA Life Member since 1984 | |||
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