Just to liven this place up a bit.

People often mention that Elmer Keith is their hero, I read his book "Hell, I was there" or such, and he sure was a character and great writer.

And a big man too, to admit in the book a domestic cat had him down and was winning all the way.

Another thing I wondered about was him being impressed about some bush pilot saving the day with a ground loop.

I've always considered a ground loop a mistake,a loss of control, and no use to man or beast.

Like a lot of boof-heads I don't like my betters telling me where I went wrong, especially after nearly getting me killed a few times.

One of my old chief pilots gave me bad directions once and when I ran out of fuel over rough country looking for a non existant airstrip, one of the things I hit during a forced landing was a BIG corner post. Didn't do the engine much good, but the engineer later told me the crack in the block had been painted over during the recondition.

So the Chief told me I should have ground looped and I would have perhaps only dinged a wingtip or so.

Yeah right. He later abandoned a take-off with no good reason (those radials fly quite well with a cyl.head flapping in the breeze) and he whipped into the amazing ground loop.

Well you should have seen the mess. The whole four wings of the ag-cat were mangled, the engineer told me it was the worst wreck the company had ever had, and only the tail wheel was reusable.

Never daunted, he tried the same thing later when he lost brakeing ability. Not so bad this time, but still a mess.

The same fella took control of a brand new Snow from the opposition for a work test. Us youngsters were summerily booted off the wing as we were too eager or something.

So his loader was telling me later that he stopped work for coffee, and was telling the farmer how he had been working for 15 years without damaging a plane and the rest of the company pilots were no hoppers.

Yep, next take-off, crashed into a creek at the end of the strip writing the snow off.
I'd have loved to see his face while telling the opposition we didn't want to test it anymore.

Sure, this was the same character that sent me off with my first overload of water, and me not briefed on where the dump lever was. I staggered over hundreds of houses thinking if I dumped I may collapse someone's roof, five miles latter turned gingerly to miss a mountain and eventually sprayed the load out.

Turned out the big sign "Pull to dump" was for the seeding attachment, and wouldn't have worked for liquid. Jeesh. What we had to put up with. Another of his trainees flew a load into a farmhouse, but I'm not sure how he arranged that.

I'm sure a ground loop will make you look like a hero if everything holds together while going sideways.

The closest I ever came was landing a champ (I think). There were springs on the tailwheel for dampening that were under tension. As best we could figure out, when the tail touched on landing one of them came loose so the plane went the other direction. It had those damn heel brakes and of course my feet weren't on them, and even if they were don't know how much good it would have been. So the plane heads off the runway (asphalt of course) and full rudder doesn't stop it. I forget why but there was something in the way and plus I wanted to keep it on the runway, so with full opposite rudder I gave it a healthy shot of throttle and it swaps directions and off to the other side we go! I'm just glad it stopped turning when it did! Anyway, went over a runway light (saw it go under the wing) and once we got into the grass on the other side of the runway it straightened out for keeps. I taxi'd gingerly back onto the runway and on to the ramp. anything other than 2/3rds rudder and it would pull to that side.

So I guess ground loops are kinda like doing donuts with a car in high grass, they look cool until you find a stump, and no one knows exactly when someone is going to find one...

For life saving emergencies, a ground loop is a good choice. Bob Hoover briefs the pilots at Reno to be prepared to do one if they make a long landing in an emergency.

Another example would be an off airport, power out landing, I will ground loop to prevent going into the trees or a brick wall.

In either example, at that point, you should have written off the airplane in your mind and be ready to sacrifice it to save your life.

quote:

Originally posted by Mark:
I'm sure a ground loop will make you look like a hero if everything holds together while going sideways.

Sure but a lot of full ground loops are quite sudden and vicious until your going backwards, unless she rolls up into a ball half way round.

quote:

There were springs on the tailwheel for dampening that were under tension.

Yep, I used to take 'em off and hoy them so far the engineers couldn't ever find them. Also if the suspension snaps off your not dragging excess baggage.

quote:

Originally posted by f224:
Bob Hoover briefs the pilots at Reno to be prepared to do one if they make a long landing in an emergency.

Yeah well, I'm on a hideing to nothing to disagree with Bob Hoover, but a lot of aircraft (like a P-51 racer I should imagine) are not realy crashworthy when upside down on the canopy. Even going into trees I'd be inclined to try to fit the engine between some and use up the wings. But I guess it's all up to our judgement at the time.

Eg. When I was upside down in an Ag-cat I was impressed on the over-turn clearence. . . until I noticed a steel post just a few inches back from my head. Another friend upended a Ceres (looks like a Harvard) and that broke his neck.

So I'd prefer to write off the engine area first and have a good inline support from the safety harness. We had a hell of a lot of hard "straight in from flight" prangs and all those survived, hard enough to dismantle a 40g seat structure, and snap off shoulder harnesses, and yet a death from a minor sideways rip of some small intestine part. (forget what it was)

Who started this gastly subject anyway? I thought I'd get flack from having a go at Elmer Keith.

quote:

Originally posted by JAL:

quote:

Originally posted by f224:
Bob Hoover briefs the pilots at Reno to be prepared to do one if they make a long landing in an emergency.

Yeah well, I'm on a hideing to nothing to disagree with Bob Hoover, but a lot of aircraft (like a P-51 racer I should imagine) are not realy crashworthy when upside down on the canopy. Even going into trees I'd be inclined to try to fit the engine between some and use up the wings. But I guess it's all up to our judgement at the time.

Eg. When I was upside down in an Ag-cat I was impressed on the over-turn clearence. . . until I noticed a steel post just a few inches back from my head. Another friend upended a Ceres (looks like a Harvard) and that broke his neck.

So I'd prefer to write off the engine area first and have a good inline support from the safety harness. We had a hell of a lot of hard "straight in from flight" prangs and all those survived, hard enough to dismantle a 40g seat structure, and snap off shoulder harnesses, and yet a death from a minor sideways rip of some small intestine part. (forget what it was)

Who started this gastly subject anyway? I thought I'd get flack from having a go at Elmer Keith.

When we closed out the duster division and sold off all the remains, the maintenance supervisor came over as a lead mechanic in the hangar - at his request as he said he knew nothing about them jets! And some of the stories he could tell you would not believe. One he told and said they stressed to all the pilots was to always try and take power lines (!) on the prop hub and to try and not slide through baarbed wire fences! OUCH!
A favorite of mine was listening to him relate a story of rebuilding an airplane over the course of weeks or months, sending it out to work and seeing it come back the same day - on a flat bed truck! Sort of lends a whole new meaning to 'Here we go again!'
And BTW, this man was an absolute artist with gas torch welding and with doped fabric. He helped many, many folks with their practical when they were working for their "A" licenses.

quote:

Originally posted by TrapperP:
One he told and said they stressed to all the pilots was to always try and take power lines (!) on the prop hub and to try and not slide through baarbed wire fences! OUCH!

Look, I'm not trying to suggest you yanks are funny or anything, but when we hit powerlines down here, we're usually quite supprised.

But would you believe, one fella hit one dead centre on an open air Jackobs (sp), and the wire wrapped around the exposed prob shaft and got tighter and tighter until he had to land right now.
I helped cut it off and it was virtually heat welded on.

And to keep on topic of shooting/flying, how about the time a beatnic was throwing rocks at me and I was very tempted to get out my 9mm auto and send a few his way.

But then I might have shot my plane or crashed into the hills with the excitement of it all.

I've read that one should hit powerlines straiht on as well. However,they are not talking about high tension powerlines just the usual power and telephone lines.

The reasoning is that as should be apparent, no one does this on purpose and when you are faced with a line in front of you the tendency is to yank the stick back and the undercarriage may get hung up. The reasoning is that if the gear gets hung up, you are definately going to crash. If you hit the wire, you MAY cut it and not crash.

quote:

Originally posted by Mark:
I've read that one should hit powerlines straiht on as well. However,they are not talking about high tension powerlines just the usual power and telephone lines.

The reasoning is that as should be apparent, no one does this on purpose and when you are faced with a line in front of you the tendency is to yank the stick back and the undercarriage may get hung up. The reasoning is that if the gear gets hung up, you are definately going to crash. If you hit the wire, you MAY cut it and not crash.

You may very well be right - but it scares the living be-jabbers out of me, none-the-less - to even think of flying into power lines! No way do I wish to fly a duster - period!
I suppose I did not make this appearent enough in my first response.

quote:

Originally posted by Mark:
and when you are faced with a line in front of you the tendency is to yank the stick back and the undercarriage may get hung up.

All too true, but being "different" I liked to hug the ground, not having so far to fall I guess.