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The infamous "Reversed cable post maintenance crash"?
Yup DuggaBoye-O NRA-Life Whittington-Life TSRA-Life DRSS DSC HSC SCI | |||
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| One of Us |
Air France says it's replacing flight instruments. RECIFE, Brazil – An Air France memo to its pilots Friday about the crash of Flight 447 said the airline is replacing instruments that help measure airspeed on all its medium- and long-haul Airbus jets. Investigators have focused on incorrect speed readings as one potential factor in the crash. With Brazil and France disagreeing about whether pieces of the jet have even been found in the Atlantic, investigators are using the last messages sent by the plane to determine the cause and try to avoid future disasters. Air France declined to comment on the memo obtained by The Associated Press, saying it was for pilots only. Airbus said the matter was part of the investigation into the crash that killed 228 people flying from Rio de Janeiro to Paris Sunday. The Bureau of Investigation and Analysis, which is leading the French probe of the crash, said it would address all questions at a Saturday news conference. The memo sent Friday said Air France has been replacing instruments known as Pitot tubes and will finish in "coming weeks." It does not say when the replacement process started. The plane's "black boxes" may be miles below the surface and investigators are looking for clues in the messages sent from the plane's computers just before it disappeared. One theory: the outside probes that feed speed sensors may have iced over, giving incorrect information to the plane's computers. The autopilot may have then directed the plane to fly too fast or too slow when it met turbulence from towering thunderstorms. Airbus sent an advisory to airlines late Thursday reminding them how to handle the A330 in similar conditions. The memo sent by Air France Friday says that a series of actions to reduce the risks of loss of airspeed information are being reinforced by "notably, the improvement of pitot models on Airbus' fleet of medium- and long-haul flights." "On this topic, a program of replacing pitots with new models is under way," the memo reads. "It should be completed in coming weeks." Pitot tubes are L-shaped metal tubes — about eight inches (20 centimeters) long on their longer side — that protrude from the wing or fuselage of a plane. The pressure of the air entering the tube lets sensors measure the speed and angle of the flight, along with less vital information like outside air temperature. They are heated to prevent icing. A blocked or malfunctioning Pitot tube could cause an airspeed sensor to work incorrectly and cause the computer controlling the plane to accelerate or decelerate in a potentially dangerous fashion. Airbus said the French agency investigating the crash found that the doomed flight had faced turbulent weather and inconsistency in the speed readings by different instruments. That meant "the measured air speed of the aircraft was unclear," Justin Dubon said. In such circumstances, flight crews should maintain thrust and pitch and — if necessary — level off the plane and start troubleshooting, Dubon said. Meteorologists said the Air France jet entered an unusual storm with 100 mph (160 kph) updrafts that acted as a vacuum, sucking water up from the ocean. The moist air rushed up to the plane's high altitude, where it quickly froze in minus-40 degree temperatures. The updrafts also would have created dangerous turbulence. The jetliner's computer systems ultimately failed, and the plane likely broke apart in midair. Brazilian officials have insisted for three days that military pilots have spotted wreckage from Flight 447 scattered across the ocean's surface. Air Force Brig. Gen. Ramon Cardoso again expressed confidence Friday that at least some of the objects — an airplane seat, a slick of kerosene and other pieces — are from the plane that vanished Sunday with 228 people on board. "This is the material that we've seen that really was part of the plane," Cardoso said. But ships guided by planes in the search area have been hampered by extremely poor visibility, and have recovered no wreckage. "We don't have any information yet that any of the ships are near any of the objects," Cardoso said. The only piece retrieved so far, a cargo pallet, turned out to be sea garbage. Like other suspicious objects, it had to be hauled up and checked out, said Brazilian Navy Adm. Edson Lawrence. French officials stopped short of criticizing their Brazilian counterparts, but France's Transportation Minister Dominique Bussereau said his own country's searchers have found no signs of the Airbus A330. "French authorities have been saying for several days that we have to be extremely prudent," Bussereau told France's RTL radio. "Our planes and naval ships have seen nothing." A French Defense Ministry official, speaking only on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to speak publicly on the matter, also questioned the Brazilian claims, saying French teams "cannot precisely confirm the zone where the plane went down." Cardoso also said a large oil slick spotted by search plane pilots was not from the Airbus, but that authorities believe another slick of kerosene was probably from the downed passenger jet. France is sending a submarine to the zone where the plane is thought to have gone down to detect signals from the two black boxes, said military spokesman Christophe Prazuck. The Emeraude, already in the Atlantic, will arrive next week, he said. The vessel, which can dive up to 980 feet (300 meters) is to be used to help try to detect the signals noises from the boxes — believed to be up to 13,100 feet (4,000 meters) underwater. It will try to capture the acoustic signals, which can last 30 days, Prazuck said. The Pentagon has said there are no signs terrorism was involved. Brazil's defense minister said the possibility was never considered. French Foreign Minister Bernard Kouchner agreed that there is no evidence supporting a "terrorism theory," but said "we cannot discard that for now." Brazil's Air Force was flying relatives of victims to the search command post in the northeastern city of Recife Friday to tour the operation and ask questions. Recife has a large air force base where debris and any human remains would be brought. | |||
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I do not follow your logic here - how can failure to properly lubricate a ball nut on the jackscrew for the horizontal stab be construed as "all software the BS attached to them" - enlighten me. And for sure software did not cause the control cables to burn through on the ValueJet DC-9 in the Everglades? Lord, give me patience 'cuz if you give me strength I'll need bail money!! 'TrapperP' | |||
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Logic is that even the simplest mechanical systems will fail if you don't do the maintenance. | |||
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I actually built the test rig at Curtiss-Wright Flight systems that tested the safety clutch system for the flap actuator gearboxes on the 737-300 up, so I know a "bit" about the systems. We had a complete STEEL frame that allowed us to attempt to test the flap gearboxes to destruction, or atleast to a far greater strain than would be possible by bolting them to an actual wing...(a wing would have crumpled like a beercan under the tracks of a tank) There have been a few instances where without being shot at all the hydraulic fluid leaked out... and just like electrical systems that stop working when the "Magic smoke" leaks out I've yet to see a hydraulic system that works once the fluid is gone. I also recall the uncommanded full rudder and the rudder control reversal (leading to fatal crashes) on the 737 that was eventually traced to a thermal shock lockup of the actuator control valve. Hydraulic control systems are easy to understand in theory when you look at the hydraulic cylinders and hydraulic motors, but when yo actually see the valve pieces in front of you it's mystifying how the damned thing can work... Ever look and I mean REALLY LOOK at the inside of an automatic transmission? Any idiot can understand a manual transmission. and with the idiots employed to fix aircraft in many places you've gotta be nuts to want more complexity. The incident with the Beech 1900 was more a matter that an uneducated tech adjusted all the slack out in one direction. that gets blamed for the crash, but it actually only made an overweight & incorrect balance (too much baggage) issue worse than it needed to be. In all likelihood that aircraft wasn't going to get back on the ground safely, the control cable issue (reducing pitch down control) only made the aircraft crash on the airport facility and kill ONE innocent bystander on the ground.... there were far worse places nearby where it could have (IMO would have) crashed and taken more people on the ground with it... Maintainance failure? Was it an Alaska Airlines DC9? I know it was a DC9... that had the horizontal stabilizer jackscrew FAIL because a series of idiots failed to lubricate it? An aircraft nearby observed the final plung and that pilot told ATC that "the Aircraft was inverted and in an extremly rapid descent... Uhhh... He's down..." AD If I provoke you into thinking then I've done my good deed for the day! Those who manage to provoke themselves into other activities have only themselves to blame. *We Band of 45-70er's* 35 year Life Member of the NRA NRA Life Member since 1984 | |||
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That's the one. MD-80. When's the last time the hydraulic brake system failed in your car while you were driving? Point is if the system is designed correctly (dual diagonal in the case of a car)it can't fail unless it's blown up or burned. Electrical/software stuff is subject to inumerable threats not the least of which is programming errors. Which CW facility ..?? | |||
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Kinda amazing, but it looks like they've found some bodies and a briefcase: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,525297,00.html for every hour in front of the computer you should have 3 hours outside | |||
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bummer for the french. I bet Airbus would really prefer not to find those flight recorders | |||
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No doubt ... | |||
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It is amazing they've found anything, much less bodies but I'd bet pretty serious money they don't recover the recorders......of course, I've lost bets before too. My sympathies to all the families of the passengers. xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
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Anything that floats eventually washes up on a beach somewhere ... I was 275 West of San Diego a few years ago and fished a whole unopened case of diet Coke out of the water. It had been afloat long enough for the coke to osmose-corrode out of the cans with no visible holes. The cans had Arabic writing which had been alomost completely oxidized away. | |||
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Seems to me finding bodies is a bit more indicitive of the plane breaking up at altitute and people falling out. Your body can probably stay intact hitting water at terminal velocity. But if you are encased in a large airliner that strikes water at terminal velicity it will disintegrate itself and its contents. | |||
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My thought was, if they are as deep underwater, as they claim, will they still function, under that pressure? Grizz Indeed, no human being has yet lived under conditions which, considering the prevailing climates of the past, can be regarded as normal. John E Pfeiffer, The Emergence of Man Those who can't skin, can hold a leg. Abraham Lincoln Only one war at a time. Abe Again. | |||
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with the rudder found seperate from the aircraft it raises the possibility that the aircraft "boomeranged" into the water like the NYC crash as opposed to "plunged" into the water noise first.... Though an inflight breakup is still very possible. AD If I provoke you into thinking then I've done my good deed for the day! Those who manage to provoke themselves into other activities have only themselves to blame. *We Band of 45-70er's* 35 year Life Member of the NRA NRA Life Member since 1984 | |||
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I'd bet you're right. | |||
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Being an ex skydiver with many years in the sport, your assumption is not necessarily correct. Unshielded bodies impacting at terminal do lose parts. A good friend of mine lost his head. | |||
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usually "beep" for 20 to 30 days. DuggaBoye-O NRA-Life Whittington-Life TSRA-Life DRSS DSC HSC SCI | |||
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Great thread folks, lots of info but I think it's too early to speculate. Surestrike's opinion carries the most weight here as he is the only one I think with hands on experience with the Airbus. The only issue that resonates with me is the Airbus crash in NYC where the tail section ripped off after apparent out of parameter rudder excursions as a result of wake turbulence. Putting a "tactical" flier's perspective, I have to consider the Airbus' low wing loading and available "G" in order to recover from an unusual attitude. If I had to hazard a guess, I would have to go with structural failure while attempting recovery from departure from controlled flight induced by turbulence. Incidentally, I recently read (but I can't find the source) of a 747 over Spain that crashed due to structural failure after a lighting strike. jorge USN (ret) DRSS Verney-Carron 450NE Cogswell & Harrison 375 Fl NE Sabatti Big Five 375 FL Magnum NE DSC Life Member NRA Life Member | |||
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Love to read that if you can find it again ... | |||
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There was a 747 a few years back over the pacific that hit wind shear and went into a dive. Lots of people hurt, bits of the airplane dissapeared, but they recovered control and landed it. As I recall the Boeing engineers were wondering why the wings didn't fall off. | |||
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China Airlines 006? a "routine" engine failure which the flight crew reacted improperly/innefectively to causing the incident. Read the wiki page on the incident: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C..._Airlines_Flight_006 Se Habla "PILOT ERROR"? the flight crew performed a series of "boner" moves and should have killed everyone with their incompetence (probably due to the captains sleep deprivation), but at the last moment pulled a real hero move and recovered control. I think your point was any other aircraft would have gone U-boating. AD If I provoke you into thinking then I've done my good deed for the day! Those who manage to provoke themselves into other activities have only themselves to blame. *We Band of 45-70er's* 35 year Life Member of the NRA NRA Life Member since 1984 | |||
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Have to agree with jetdrv here - one of the bodies so far recovered 'could not be determined if it was male or female' - is this not indicative of the condition they are being found in? May they rest in peace. Lord, give me patience 'cuz if you give me strength I'll need bail money!! 'TrapperP' | |||
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Found it! : 747 mishap USN (ret) DRSS Verney-Carron 450NE Cogswell & Harrison 375 Fl NE Sabatti Big Five 375 FL Magnum NE DSC Life Member NRA Life Member | |||
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Anything that floats in the tropics for more than an hour or so gets chewed on by everything from bacteria to white sharks. | |||
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Well, it seems to be getting worse. I got an email from South America stating that this airliner had a mid-air crash with another plane. The French secret police are saying two of the passengers were on their terrorist watch list. Who are we going to believe? | |||
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About all I can say is LOT of activity re these A/C in the industry, as would be expected. As to what we know or will ever be told, I don't know - I do think this one will be open and active for a long long time. AirBus, at fault or no, is sure to carry a heap of the blame; aka "See, it's happened, look, the tail fell off another one!" Now, what effect will this have on say the B787 'Dreamliner' re new and 'different' technology and the remainder of the AirBus' flying I can not even guess. Lord, give me patience 'cuz if you give me strength I'll need bail money!! 'TrapperP' | |||
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The simple answer is don't believe anything or ANYBODY until the official investigation and report are finished. Anything you read in the press about anything to do with aviation and especially an accident is generally certifiable B.S.! | |||
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I just recalled having seen that airplane sitting on the ramp at SFO. It was missing the wing tips, having lost a few feet on both sides, and the horizontal stabilizers were bent down at about a five degree angle, at least. Boeing builds them right. As I recall, they got upside down and supersonic and the capt. had to extend the gear to slow it down. Good move on his part. They lost the gear doors, of course. | |||
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Absolutely and unequivocally correct! | |||
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That one's cursed ... | |||
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Hey, can anyone enlighten me on these infamous "airspeed sensors"? Everyone and their grandmother are calling these items "sensors", yet from the vague descriptions of them it soulnds as if they are just regular pitot tubes providing ram air pressure, which is not a "sensor" no matter how you look at it. Anyway, does anyone know the story on them? for every hour in front of the computer you should have 3 hours outside | |||
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Would be some sort of electronic sensor measuring the Delta via said pitot tube. Remember the B-2 that crashed on a sunny day in Guam ...?? They had some sensor get moisture in it which told the avionics software to fly upside down and backwards or whatever. One would hope that a commercial airliner would have simpler and more reliable systems than a B2 ...  | |||
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As has been mentioned, surestrike is the only Airbus driver who has chimed in here. I don't know exactly how the A330 deciphers the input from the pitot tubes. If you ice up a tube or worse, all pitot tubes, you aren't going to have an airspeed readout because there is no data going to the computer. That is about as bad as it can get. A clogged static port or ports will do the same thing, as per the (I think) Lan Chile crash were the crew missed the fact that the static ports on a (I think) 757 were taped over when the aircraft was washed. It went in at night with all hands. If the French equivalent of an AD was issued on the pitot tubes and Air France didn't comply, then shame on them. | |||
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What a rough and tumble career. I guess it was LAX where I saw it on the ramp after the Pacific enroute altitude loss, not SFO as I mentioned in another post. Hell of a way to end up, sitting on the ramp in Tijuana waiting for a buyer. It's flying days may be over. | |||
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LAX was it's original destination and they landed at SFO after the "emergency" as for Pitot tube incidents I can't help but think of Birgenair Flight 301. the problem with idiots is not that they kill themselves but they tend to take someone else with them. Not taped over pitot tubes but no Pitot covers and mud dauber wasps made themselves at home... Ya can't fly an aircraft with instruments that are lying to you, but you sure can crash one... AD If I provoke you into thinking then I've done my good deed for the day! Those who manage to provoke themselves into other activities have only themselves to blame. *We Band of 45-70er's* 35 year Life Member of the NRA NRA Life Member since 1984 | |||
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A monkey could get an true airspeed reading with a Garmin GPS ... but then you'd have to have somethng caveman simple like that on board and know how to convert the data ...  | |||
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I know I can get a true GROUNDspeed reading with an inexpensive Garmin GPS, but please do tell how you can get a true AIR speed reading with one? I'm curious how you wiggle out of this mis-statement  If I provoke you into thinking then I've done my good deed for the day! Those who manage to provoke themselves into other activities have only themselves to blame. *We Band of 45-70er's* 35 year Life Member of the NRA NRA Life Member since 1984 | |||
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Going back 50 years in the vague recesses of my memory. Airspeed (as read by the pitot tube, with help from the static air source) has a real correlation to lift, and stalling. Using the E6 computer, outside air temp, and altitude you could come up with true air speed. Ground speed was dependant on wind direction and speed, and true air speed. The GPS unit will give you true ground speed, and direction. Possibly you could work back from that and get air speed. I think what we are discussing is indicated air speed, and not true air speed. I am retired from IBM as a Software Engineer. I have written and tested thousands of lines of code at IBM, and elsewhere. Fly by wire scares me. There should be a backup system of some kind. When an F16 computer fails the pilot can eject, but on a passenger aircraft it is a disaster. | |||
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