Sounds like a possible stall spin..??

The ole cirrus is fast gaining the rights to be the new king of the Dr/yuppie killers.

Yeah, got away from him somehow. High wing loading and gusty winds and perhaps inexperience all add up.

what is the wing loading comparable to?

did a lot of flying with my dad growing up--lots of fun--and I learned this much, if I learned anything:

t'aint like getting in the car and turning the key!

friar

quote:

what is the wing loading comparable to?

Here is the Navy version undergoing trials:



Sorry, I shouldn't say that as I haven't ever flown one, but I thought it was a funny picture...

IMO the Cirrus is getting a bad rap for most of these accidents. They are typically the fault of the pilot and not the airplane. Richard Collins had some comments in the latest Flying mag and it seems there are a lot of relatively inexperienced pilots buying these planes and flying into conditions they have no business flying in. Over confident in the avionics, airplane and their own abilities.

As was the case with another high end high performance single of the past.

The "infamous" V-tailed doctor lawyer killer. Nothing wrong with that airplane either only the type of guys flying it. A-type personalities lots of money, big egos and slim experience.

quote:

Originally posted by Mark:

quote:

what is the wing loading comparable to?

Here is the Navy version undergoing trials:



Sorry, I shouldn't say that as I haven't ever flown one, but I thought it was a funny picture...

I've got to admit, that's funny, though!

You guys may have hit the nail on the head, though, when it comes to A-types "getting in and going."

A couple of years ago, one of my father's students was in a big hurry to get 40 hours (iirr) for his type rating, and until he had the time, he needed an instructor in the type as pilot in command (or whatever it's called).

So he asked my dad if he would go along on a quick trip down to Texas, which would fulfill the 40 hours.

My dad asked, "sure, when do you want to go?" The guy says "how about an hour or two from now?"

My dad declined. The fellow got another instructor to help drive, and guess what happened 3 miles short of the run-way?

You got it--cough, cough, sputter, choke!

They bent the plane a little coming into a field; luckily, neither of them were hurt.

The crime of it all was that, as pilot in command, the accident went on the instructor's record.

what do you bet he kicked himself more than once thinking about it all!?

friar

I don't know what the problem maybe other than its a fast airplane, and a Avonic package that takes some serious training and a few hundred operational hours to get good with it. I flown a 182 a few weeks back with a G-1000 in it. The guy gave me 20 min flying and said I was good to go to Europe hard IFR, I said no f++King way pal. Then again I only been flying for 33 going on 34 years now. I think there is some disconect going on here. The G-1000 has 108 function buttons! Hell what is wrong with two KX-170B's?

From what I understand, the pilot was inbound to FBL a few hours of so earlier and did not make it in. He showed up later and upon attempting to land, clipped a wing and cartwheeled. Helluva cross wind I think.

I hate to say it, but it is starting to look like the SR series of airplanes are replacing the Bonanza as doctor and lawyer killers.

We've beaten this subject pretty hard. Summarily, there is no substitute for experience, combined with a solid training foundation and continuous effort to improve and perfect one's skills and maintain those skills to proficiency.

I have a serious problem with these folks who have a bank full of money and have to be the first guy on their block to own the neatest little flying machine they make, whatever brand it is.

A fat bank account doesn't equate to flying ability, and there should be someone out there saying this repeatedly. Maybe there is, as I no longer read the trades or AvWeb, but it's damned ridiculous for these guys to kill themselves and their helpless passenger(s) because of a flush bank balance and an over-inflated ego.

Yet, the beat goes on.

For all I know, the 22 is a fine airplane. I have never flown one and would like to. And if I could, (can't; no physical; emphysema), I would insure that I knew what each and every button it the airplane did and would train to the level of proficiency so that the operation of the systems would be reflexive, backed up by a solid checklist.

There's nothing more pathetic or dangerous in an airplane than a pilot who refuses to acknowledge his limitations.

Rant concluded.

quote:

Originally posted by jetdrvr:
We've beaten this subject pretty hard. Summarily, there is no substitute for experience, combined with a solid training foundation and continuous effort to improve and perfect one's skills and maintain those skills to proficiency.

I have a serious problem with these folks who have a bank full of money and have to be the first guy on their block to own the neatest little flying machine they make, whatever brand it is.

A fat bank account doesn't equate to flying ability, and there should be someone out there saying this repeatedly. Maybe there is, as I no longer read the trades or AvWeb, but it's damned ridiculous for these guys to kill themselves and their helpless passenger(s) because of a flush bank balance and an over-inflated ego.

Yet, the beat goes on.

For all I know, the 22 is a fine airplane. I have never flown one and would like to. And if I could, (can't; no physical; emphysema), I would insure that I knew what each and every button it the airplane did and would train to the level of proficiency so that the operation of the systems would be reflexive, backed up by a solid checklist.

There's nothing more pathetic or dangerous in an airplane than a pilot who refuses to acknowledge his limitations.

Rant concluded.

Can you say "John F. Kennedy JR?" Should never, ever have been flying that aircraft under the conditions.

Absolutely. Overconfidence kills.

I have an old wooden plaque hanging on my wall among pictures of planes I have flown and places I've flown them. Some of you may have seen it, as it has been around since the 70's.

It is a picture of an old biplane sticking in a tree about ten feet off the ground, with a couple looking at it. The caption reads, "Aviation in itself is not inherently dangerous. But to an even greater degree than the sea, it is terribly unforgiving of any carelessness, incapacity, or neglect."

If flight instructors pounded those sentences into the heads of every primary flight student they encounter, and it is constantly reinforced during those individuals' careers, be they private or commercial, fewer lives would be lost.

Aside from the human cost which is alarming, these accidents are causing insurance premiums to sky rocket for SR22s.....>6%.

This is creating a huge barriers for us SR22 want to be..

jetdrvr, what type of equipment do you fly?

I'm retired out of the left seat of the 747-200. I also flew L-382's, (the civilian Hercules), and many types of general aviation aircraft.

Don't miss it much. Got tired of management's abuse and retired in 1998 before I reached age 60, but I do occasionally miss strapping on a Great Lakes or a Citabria and going up and wringing one out.

quote:

I'm retired out of the left seat of the 747-200. I also flew L-382's, (the civilian Hercules), and many types of general aviation aircraft.

I always thought the civilian version of the C130 was the 'L100' - at least that is what we called the five of them we flew at one time.

The L-382 is a civilianized Herc. the L-100 is a Herc that was built for the civilian market. If my memory serves me right it is a bit longer that the L-382.

I run into Cirrus maintenance and sales people pretty regularly up here, and they have talked to me about their program for supplying an instructor to new buyers. What they said took me back a bit- their intention is for a new buyer to have their private cert in 3 months, their instrument by one year.

If we were talking about a 20 year old full-time student flying a 152 or 172 I can imagine it working. But when you combine people that are usually working time-consuming, stressful jobs (how else to afford 500k?) and are not as malleable and do not memorize like a 20 year old, it seems really really fast.

Their idea is to use business trips that the student needs to go on anyway as training flights, in addition to a normal training schedule. If wx goes down, the instructor flies the rest of the way or it becomes an IFR enroute lesson.

Now, I have done exactly this sort of training/flying job before, and it is really tough to work out the question- is the goal to get to this meeting, or accomplish some training. There seem to be too many moving parts in this plan for me. I think it works most of the time for most of the pilots, but right now the records are maybe reflecting the people that did not quite get it.

Really, operating the plane is pretty simple compared to making the best decisions. I'm not sure how much insight a pilot can gain into good decision making in 12 months before deciding to fly IFR in the flight levels w/ anti-ice equipment, oxygen, and one engine. Or land with a good crosswind.

Doug

Not to hijack the thread completely, but...

The way I understand it, Delta called the airplane the L-100. Lockheed has always called it the L-382. That's what my type rating says, anyway.

There are two versions, the single and double stretch. The single stretch allows for one more pallet position than the military version; the double, two. Southern Air had two single stretches. One got blown up by a land mine planted in the end of the runway just for us by the Sudanese army at Wao, Sudan Serious injuries but no fatalities. N522SJ, as I recall.

IMG]http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r178/jetdrvr1/c130_314.jpg[/IMG]





The other shorty got shot up in Biadoia, Somalia by a pissed-off Somali loader with an AK with all five crew members strapped in their seats. Only one guy was hit by a flying chunk of metal blown off a circuit breaker panel. Got a ding in his calf. The windshield was shot out and the fire emergency control panel just above the captain's head took a round. Both rounds missed him by inches.

The shooter walked his fire down the side of the aircraft, after putting five or six rounds into the cockpit and took out the gas turbine compressor that is used to do off-airport starts, and the #2 engine.

Those guys were $hitting bricks, but they all walked away.

The shooter was chased into the bush by security and killed with grenades. They never did pay us enough, but man, did we have some stories to tell.

The Somali airplane, N521SJ, was repaired on site by our fantastic British contract mechanics and may still be flying today.

This is the double stretch, sitting on the ramp at Benguela, Angola during the war.




Here's another shot of a double stretch, of which we owned fifteen or sixteen, making a low pass at Lokichoggio, Kenya during Operation Lifeline Sudan. We used to buzz the UN Club Med on our last trip before rotating out. Tried to blow the roofs of their tuckles (stone huts with thatch roofs and running water), the pansies, and it really pissed them off. They had a recreation room and we were living in a fly camp in 125 degree heat drinking warm beer.




BTW, the RAF uses the double stretch version. There were few differences between the civilian version and the military models except length after the "A" series ceased production, which features three bladed props. All the later versions we had flew Ham Standard 54H60 four blades.

I hear there's a new version out now with six-bladed carbon fiber props and substantially upgraded engines. Man, would I love to get my hands on that. It's a howler.

quote:

Originally posted by dougk:
I run into Cirrus maintenance and sales people pretty regularly up here, and they have talked to me about their program for supplying an instructor to new buyers. What they said took me back a bit- their intention is for a new buyer to have their private cert in 3 months, their instrument by one year.

If we were talking about a 20 year old full-time student flying a 152 or 172 I can imagine it working. But when you combine people that are usually working time-consuming, stressful jobs (how else to afford 500k?) and are not as malleable and do not memorize like a 20 year old, it seems really really fast.

Their idea is to use business trips that the student needs to go on anyway as training flights, in addition to a normal training schedule. If wx goes down, the instructor flies the rest of the way or it becomes an IFR enroute lesson.

Now, I have done exactly this sort of training/flying job before, and it is really tough to work out the question- is the goal to get to this meeting, or accomplish some training. There seem to be too many moving parts in this plan for me. I think it works most of the time for most of the pilots, but right now the records are maybe reflecting the people that did not quite get it.

Really, operating the plane is pretty simple compared to making the best decisions. I'm not sure how much insight a pilot can gain into good decision making in 12 months before deciding to fly IFR in the flight levels w/ anti-ice equipment, oxygen, and one engine. Or land with a good crosswind.

Doug

Yeah, that's a valid point. With something as apparently as fast, unforgiving and complex as the little SR 22 is, it would seem to me that one should be concentrating on learning the aircraft and how to fly it, not getting enroute instruction on a business trip. That seems fallacious to me, but it's a good way to sell airplanes. And, apparently, kill the customers.