3 confirmed dead over 50 injured, many critical.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/...|dl2|sec1_lnk3|96406

I wonder if this is the final nail in the coffin of these races? They have had a horrendously bad accident rate with multiple fatal crashes recently.

I was there and I hate to say very close! More dead than 3 though!

I read deaths are 12 now! Tragic!

Drudge says 9 as of right now, some witnesses are saying that part of the tail section parted the airplane before things went south. Crap happens. I think this is going to be the beginning of the end of the Reno Air Races.

Very bad! ! Reckon why there was no explosion?

Truely a misfortune of considerable size for all even remotely involved.

It may be the end of the races, but I sure hope not. Every single person on earth risks death every day, all day. Sooner or later they all fail to beat the odds, once.

Surely people can understand the risks involved in air races. That said, I believe they should be allowed to run the risk of being a competitor, a race official, or an on-site observer if they want to.

I just plain don't believe there is any legitimate interest in the nanny state controlling everything we are allowed to do or risk. No one is forced to go to air races, except perhaps young chidren in the company of their parents.

It would be easy to control that, without barring the races from occuring or adults from attending.

Perhaps to keep the shysters at bay, we need to start having people sign acknowledgements and waivers before letting them on the grounds, but hardly more.

Good thoughts AC. I've been to a number of airshows where very small children were obviously extremely unhappy with the noise and the parents were oblivious, even during a good old "down and dirty" F-4 flyby ....

No reason to cancel the races. Indy doesn't get cancelled if someone hits the wall.

Friend out there said he saw a crash pic which shows the trim tab missing while the aircraft is still in the air. That could cause a nasty reaction as most of you know, particularly at over 400 knots. We'll see.

Whatever the case, it is a real tragedy.

Here's a photo prior to impact. You can clearly see the missing tab. And that may be smoke issuing from the fuselage aft of the wing. Not sure.

.

This is the only video I've seen that shows almost all of the flight path of the P51 right before impact. My guess is that the pilot was g-locked right after the inversion, hence him not being visible in the cockpit right before impact. Starts at 40 seconds into this
video --

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e60_W4tuTNI

.

quote:

Originally posted by jetdrvr:
Here's a photo prior to impact. You can clearly see the missing tab. And that may be smoke issuing from the fuselage aft of the wing. Not sure.

That is normal and it is from the total loss cooling system, where the radiator is moved up into a tank and immersed in a water and alky mix. When the radiator heats it causes the H2O/alky mix to boil. That moves the heat out of the radiator and coolant. The water/alcohol mix can be adjusted to change the boiling point. The steam from it all is dumped overboard and that is what you are seeing.

From the "That didn't take long" files:

http://www.prweb.com/releases/2011/9/prweb8805889.htm

Aircraft just prior to impact. No pilot visible. Very likely unconscious. The intense G force very likely caused the tailwheel to extend.

since I know nothing I'll ask:

someone said "g-lock". what does it mean?

second, that little tab could cause the whole thing to happen? can someone explain?

third, so the pilot never likely knew what happened?

G-lock, I believe is G-force induced loss of conciousness. Basically the high G-force that pushes the pilot into the seat drains the blood from the brain causing black-out.

Something as little as a trim tab has a very large effect on the aircraft. That tab reduces control forces and loosing it could prevent the pilot from being able to push or pull the controls to effect the elevator. A plausible scenario in this case.

Hard to say if he knew what was coming. I doubt so.

There are many more important aspects to this tragedy, but holy crap that was a beautiful airplane.

Can you post this video here? I'm having trouble logging in to my Youtube account.

Thanks,

friar

Just got an email from an old buddy who flew F-111's and Hercs that telemetry shows 11.6 instantaneous G's caused by the tab failure. This is unconfirmed at this time, but he has excellent sources. If I get more, I'll post it.

Jetdrvr, where did you find those pics? I can't find any video with that detail/quality.

Thanks,

friar

I got them in emails from former fellow SAT crewmembers. I think they are stills from a TV station in the Reno area, but I'm not sure.

so if i understand the loss of the tab would have sent the plane straight up giving the pilot the 11.6 instant g lock rending him unconscious? what caused the plane to then turn over and come crashing down at over 400 knots?

quote:

Originally posted by jsl3170:
so if i understand the loss of the tab would have sent the plane straight up giving the pilot the 11.6 instant g lock rending him unconscious? what caused the plane to then turn over and come crashing down at over 400 knots?

It's trim position, the airplane was trimmed for 400kts, by applying full nose down trim. When the trim tab broke off (if that is what happened) the airplane pitched up. Similar to what happened to another pilot in 1989. Back then an immediate 10+ g pitch up occurred that blacked out the pilot, but he was high enough to pull the power back after he recovered from the G lock. In the Reno case, the airplane rolled (most likely from torque) upside down and as it resought the trimmed airspeed, it slammed into the ground.

That is just the current theory.

quote:

Originally posted by jetdrvr:
Just got an email from an old buddy who flew F-111's and Hercs that telemetry shows 11.6 instantaneous G's caused by the tab failure. This is unconfirmed at this time, but he has excellent sources. If I get more, I'll post it.

Some are asking if that is photoshopped, I am not sure.

it's nice to speak with someone who can explain it all the way you guys can. thanks. what does it mean the airplane was trimmed for 400 knots? under the current theory, at what point was the pilot no longer in control of the aircraft?

Do these guys race with a G suit?

quote:

Originally posted by jsl3170:
it's nice to speak with someone who can explain it all the way you guys can. thanks. what does it mean the airplane was trimmed for 400 knots? under the current theory, at what point was the pilot no longer in control of the aircraft?

The trim tabs reduce aerodynamic force upon the controls. Aircraft with a wide speed range, like the P-51, that do not have boosted controls the pilot is constantly trimming to reduce control forces. In this case, near full nose down trim was most likely applied and when the tab broke off (if that is what happened) the aircraft would have violently pitched up with control stick forces that could not be overcome by the pilot prior to G lock.

In the DC9 and MD-80 series of airplanes, a control tab is used to move the flight controls. It moves in the opposite direction of the control surfaces and uses aerodynamic force to move the surface. Those airplanes still have trim tabs.

And no, they do not wear G suits as a rule in non jet airplanes.

A picture of the tab separation. These shots are apparently from KOLO-TV.



I received this email from my old AF buddy...

No source on this, but it sounds plausible.............

Instantaneous 11.5 G's says it all

Followup email and clarification of the events
New intel related to the Jimmy leeward P-51 crash: Talked with Several people associated with the galloping Ghost Crew (race 177) There was telemetry installed on the aircraft and it was sending data out till the termination of the flight. 2 things were mentioned, As you have now learned or found out on the internet The trim tab on the elevator failed and departed the aircraft at the most critical time. (This is used to relieve undue control stick pressure for the pilot. Most in the know feel this is what caused the sudden divergence which in turn resulted in sudden roll and upset Note: the photos ( what is not shown in sequence is the vertical climb after upset). The telemetry shows the aircraft was making power prior to the failure to the tune of 105" Manifold pressure and had just passed Rare bear who was holding 2nd place. Some speculate that wake turbulence from the two other aircraft in lead may have caused the trim tab failure. Any way the sudden shearing of the tab coupled with the high airspeed 400 plus MPH created a roll and failure of the elevator assembly which resulted in a sudden pitch up (Wings are still creating lift) (telemetry showed an instant 11.5Gs) note the retractable tail wheel assembly is out due to excessive g load. the loss of initial power may have been caused by fuel inertia away from the fuel control and induction system. Photos also show at this point no alert pilot observed in the cockpit, (due to hi g incapacitation) Others I talked with say the engine did come back to full power prior to impact. A truly sad and tragic day for those who suffered a loss or were injured.

quote:

Originally posted by Mark:

quote:

Originally posted by jetdrvr:
Here's a photo prior to impact. You can clearly see the missing tab. And that may be smoke issuing from the fuselage aft of the wing. Not sure.

That is normal and it is from the total loss cooling system, where the radiator is moved up into a tank and immersed in a water and alky mix. When the radiator heats it causes the H2O/alky mix to boil. That moves the heat out of the radiator and coolant. The water/alcohol mix can be adjusted to change the boiling point. The steam from it all is dumped overboard and that is what you are seeing.

Basically, the radiator as an intercooler of sorts. Ingenious.

I got this email and can email the photos if you PM an email address.

Kerry Kirkland
Sr. Vice President & General Manager
Stress Subsea Inc.
kerry.kirkland@stress.com
281-890-2580


Thought this might interest you. I'm betting the seat collapsed under
high G load.
Subject: Fw: Galloping Ghost crash

For all you flyboys, here's another, better account of what may
have been the primary cause. This theory makes sense. I apologize
if you've already seen this.

Here's the theory of the crash from experienced racers.

In 1989 this type of thing happened to another pilot but he lived
to tell the story. When flying a P-51 at 450+mph you need to have
full nose down trim to keep the plane level. The elevator trim tab
broke off and the aircraft imediately went in to a 10G climb,
confirmed by the G-meter. The pilot came to, from the sudden
blackout and realized he had slipped through the shoulder harness
and was looking at the floor of the airplane. He was able to reach
the throttle and pull it back to slow down and was able to recover
and land.

Fast forward to 2011.

Photo one is the airplane taxiing, note the pilots head in the
canopy.

Photo two is typical oil canning as a result of the tremendous
torque these engines put out at high power.

Photo three is a photo of GG upside down with a missing elevator
trim tab. Note all you see is the back of the pilots head
indicating he is being forced down in the cockpit.

Photo four is a view of the left side (this may be photoshopped)
nose down with the tail wheel extended and no view of the pilot.
The tail wheel is held up by hydraulics only with no mechanical
uplock, thus indicating a high G-force causing it to extend.

Photos five and six are from the left side prior to impact, note no
view of the pilot and the tail wheel is extended.

Photo seven is the debris just after the crash. To the right of
center above the crowd it appears to be the wing with the leading
edge down.

A friend of mine was suppose to be there but didn't go and he has
several friends in the hospital right now. The people were mostly
hit by chunks of concrete, asphalt and aircraft debris. They were
also hurt by the trampling of people getting out of the way.

John Schauer
B-29 Flight Engineer/Instructor/Evaluator
C-130 Flight Engineer/Instructor

That's pretty much it. Sorta like swinging a water balloon around in circles above your head; all the fluid (blood) is drained away from the brain. Likely not instant GLOC as we have about 3-4 seconds of O2 in reserve.

quote:

Originally posted by Clem:
G-lock, I believe is G-force induced loss of conciousness. Basically the high G-force that pushes the pilot into the seat drains the blood from the brain causing black-out.

Something as little as a trim tab has a very large effect on the aircraft. That tab reduces control forces and loosing it could prevent the pilot from being able to push or pull the controls to effect the elevator. A plausible scenario in this case.

Hard to say if he knew what was coming. I doubt so.

quote:

Originally posted by jsl3170:
it's nice to speak with someone who can explain it all the way you guys can. thanks. what does it mean the airplane was trimmed for 400 knots? under the current theory, at what point was the pilot no longer in control of the aircraft?

Ok as airspeed changes the center of lift changes slightly...

At low speed the aircraft tends to pitch nose down (particularly when power is applied at lower speeds) and as speed increases it tends to pitch nose up. (Elevator effectiveness increases with speed... up to a point)

So there are trim tabs to fine adjust the aircraft to keep the controls more or less centered and as speed changes the pilot must adjust then to eliminate constand effort to keep the aircraft level and flying in a strait line

at 400kts the aircraft is trimmed nearly full nose down.

At higher speeds (on more modern aircraft) conventional "elvators" and trim tabs become nearly useless so another method is employed to control the aircraft, this is called a "flying tail" where the angle of the entire horizontal surface is changed to control the aircraft, and a jackscrew is used to adjust the entire surface relative to the controls to accomplish "trim".

The P51 being a combat aircraft that needed to manuever to fight has a lot of "Control Power", aggrevating the problem is that the original combat aircraft had a large fuel tank in the fuselage behind the pilot that the aircraft needed provisions to adjust for.

Generally speaking air racing aircraft have that fuel tank removed because of the adverse affect it has on trim as that fuel is burned off.

typically this fuel tank is replaced by smaller tanks mounted in the wings in the space formerly occupied by the guns and their ammunition. (there are existing 140gallon tanks in each wing as-built and on the Galloping Ghost one of these tanks was filled with water/methanol mix as anti-detonant fluid and sacrifical engine coolant)

During their time on combat service the fuel in that large tank was burned FIRST, even before the fuel in the drop tanks these aircraft were typically equipped with because the drop tanks were mounted so that their weight didn't affect trim very much, and with the large fuselage tank full a P-51 almost wanted to fly to try to fly backwards when you attempted more than a gentle turn until most of that fuel had been used

Fortunatly in their wartime role much of that fuel would be used climbing to altitude, the pilot would then switch to the drop tanks for the trip to enemy territory at cruising power.


Simply flying one of these aircraft is inherently dangerous, pushing one near it's limits even more so, and even though thei aircraft has been rebuilt, several times it is still a nearly 70year old aircraft.

"Bad shit happens" if you just wait long enough for it, this guy wasn't sitting in a rocking chair...


Onto the issue of a G-suit... I don't believe Reno racing pilots wear them but the point is moot, 11.whatever G's is well above the threshold for G-lock even with a G-suit and specially trained and carefully selected combat Jet pilots.

As an example the F-16 Falcon fighter is designed for an airframe limit of 12G's the pilot is not expected to be in control of his faculties, let alone the aircraft above 9G's, so the computer controlled "fly by wire" is limited to 9g's

But back to discussing "TRIM", a single engine aircraft also has "trim" for both the Rudder and Alerons for Yaw and Roll because changes in power cause the aircraft to both yaw and roll due to engine torque as power and speed change.

That all being said this "Incident" was caused basically by a combination of untested modifications to the original aircraft design an an aircraft owner that tried to save literally "pennies" by re-using hardware (nylon insert locknuts) that I was instructed 30 years ago to regard as "single use" items.

Anyone remember the poem about "Logistics"

"for want of a nail..."

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