A tribute to the crews who flew the jug.


http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4368250464023128830&pr=goog-sl

I've posted this pic before.


And second from the left is Horace Waggoner, the person responsible for getting me interested in these planes. Horace died back in 87.

The Kalamazoo Air Zoo http://www.airzoo.org/ has a gorgeous P47 painted in the markings of Francis Gabreski's plane he flew in WWII.

Republic P-47 Thunderbolt
The Seven Ton Milk Jug
"It better dive, because it sure as Hell can't climb." Don Blakeslee
15,700 planes produced, starting in March, 1942.
P-47D specs: 430 MPH, eight 50 caliber machine guns
Robert S. Johnson and the P-47
When Robert S. Johnson first saw a Thunderbolt, it was love at first sight. The P-47B was a giant with a 2,000 horsepower engine; not very pretty on the ground, but every inch a powerful machine, rugged and sturdy with all the mass of a tank. He scrutinized the tremendous four-bladed propeller. In each wing rested four 50 caliber machine guns, giving the Thunderbolt the ability to throw 7,200 rounds of lead per minute!
He had a chance to check out the P-47 at Bradley Field:
I hit the starter switch. Deep inside her belly the Thunderbolt groaned, a straining rumble sounding for all the world like a giant dynamo coming alive. Ahead of me the four propeller blades turned slowly, then began to move faster as the Pratt & Whitney gained in power. The rumble increased in pitch, the blades became a blur. Suddenly the cranking and rumbling vanished, to be replaced by a tremendous, throaty roar, a bass of power such as I'd never heard. I cracked the throttle forward a fraction of an inch and the fighter sang of power, a symphony of thunder, alive and ready to howl at the slightest movement of my fingers.
He took the plane up, nearly killing himself when the heavy canopy bar slid back and smashed his head. But he got the ship in the air and it howled its way up into the sky. He soon learned that "unless we plunged nose first into the ground, we couldn't hurt the Thunderbolt". It could take the stress of any aerobatic maneuver. The pilots of the 56th Fighter Group grew to trust the fighter, knowing they could subject it to any demands of aerial combat.
After he arrived in England in early 1943, he saw his first Spitfire and compared it to the Thunderbolt. The differences were amazing. The P-47 was a giant, massive weapon; the English fighter was lithe and rapid, with the agility to dart in and out of battle. The RAF pilots warned the Americans that their huge Thunderbolts would be sitting ducks against the Messerschmitts and Focke Wulfs. They were wrong. The tough Thunderbolts more than held their own against the Luftwaffe.
One day in late June, 1943, Johnson's Thunderbolt was hit early in the mission and then helplessly subjected to an Fw 190's machine gun fire on the way home. You read about this famous story in the Robert S. Johnson article on this site. Somehow, incredibly, the P-47 absorbed this battering from the German guns and made it back. After the injured Johnson had landed his plane at the Manston emergency strip, he surveyed the damage it had taken, and later described the result in his autobiography, Thunderbolt!:
There are twenty-one gaping holes and jagged tears in the metal from exploding 20mm cannon shells. I'm still standing in one place when my count of bullet holes reaches past a hundred; there's no use even trying to add them all. The Thunderbolt is literally a sieve, holes through the wings, fuselage and tail. Every square foot, it seems is covered with holes. There are five holes in the propeller. Three 20mm cannon shells burst against the armor plate, a scant inch away from my head. Five cannon shell holes in the right wing; four in the left wing. Two cannnon shells blasted away the lower half of my rudder. One shell exploded in the cockpit, next to my left hand; this is the blast that ripped away the flap handle. More holes appeared along the fuselage and in the tail. Behind the cockpit, the metal is twisted and curled; this had jammed the canopy, trapping me inside.
The airplane had done her best. Needless to say, she would never fly again.
Johnson had great success with the Thunderbolt, shooting down 27 German planes over Europe while flying the rugged fighters.â€

I did a C&P here to illustrate the P47 and give some background for Robert “Bob†Johnson. I got to meet this guy at “The Battle of Britain, Forty Years Later†hosted by Art Flicklin. Bob Johnson was a typical fighter jock; small, cocky and self-assured. I make that statement with absolutely no disrespect intended, just stating the obvious. We had one guy in the audience that evidently wanted to try and show up Johnson, as evidenced by his questions. He asked Johnson what he would have done had he ‘strafed an enemy fighter and he dropped his landing gear in the international sign of surrender?’ Not satisfied when Johnson tried to pass on to something else, he asked again, this time even more to the point. Johnson thought a second, then stated, “It would depend on whether he was by himself or had a wingman.†To this the heckler queried as to what possible difference this could make? Johnson brought down the house when he replied, “Well, if he had a wingman, I would have gone after him. If he was by himself, I would have honked around and hosed the bastard again!†‘Nuff said?â€
Johnson also had a brief bit of film from his gunsight camera, showing a train he found on returning from a cover flight. First time you see train, it is steaming from left to right at high speed, next time it appears to be going right to left but upside down, meaning Johnson is now inverted. Image jumps and shakes as he turns all eight fifties loose, then stabilises as the locomotive blows up with a massive cloud of smoke and steam. What a sight! gotta love somethng that big, that rugged and fast with eight fifties for a 'stinger.'

quote:

Originally posted by TrapperP:
Republic P-47 Thunderbolt
The Seven Ton Milk Jug
"It better dive, because it sure as Hell can't climb." Don Blakeslee

Year or two just after joining AR someone had an Avatar or something re. the P-47.
I foolishly said it looked like a "clunker", meaning something like perhaps, "heavy"?
Well I got pulled up short didn't I.
Seems the plane is a go-er, but I still say it looks like a clunker.

quote:

Seems the plane is a go-er, but I still say it looks like a clunker.

It does not look like that in person and you should hear one running.
There is a book that has photos of most US aces and it includes a guy that has 19 little swasticas painted on his plane... and 69 little locomotives.

quote:

It does not look like that in person and you should hear one running.

There is nothing to compare with the sound of one of those big Pratt & Whitney radials snorting to life.

Go here for a lot of bio information on the pilots and planes.

http://www.acepilots.com/

No? Well a Merlin would come close.

quote:

Originally posted by JAL:
No? Well a Merlin would come close.

Oh, boy - here we go again, P47 vs the P51, liquid cooled inline vs the aircooled radial. I admit the Merlin sounds good and it is in a class of its own whether it is pulling a Spitfire through the clouds or hung on the nose of a P51 and called a 1710 Allison. But be sure and duck or I'm going to knock your lights out - a tiny, tiny pinhole in the glycol systemn and your liquid cooled inline bleeds to death, fast! I believe it was Gabreski that flew a Jug home with the two bottom cylinders in the front bank shot completely away, cylinder, piston and all – and he still flew it home! Try that sometime in your in-line, liquid cooled engine. As the old P51 drivers said, when you see white smoke you better be looking for a place to land when you bail out because you ain’t flying long!

That first picture I posted, you never see a P-51 in that sort of shape that made it back.

If you talk to any old maintenance officers of Tbolt squadrons that transitioned to 51's, they'll say the 51 was a heck of a plane but they had a lot of guys that didn't make it back.

I read of at least one high scoring ace that started in a P-47 was assigned to P-51s and then went back to the P-47 - simply because he wanted to get back alive.

Vemo thanks, enjoyed the clip. They used to make P-47's in Evansville IN.

quote:

I believe it was Gabreski that flew a Jug home with the two bottom cylinders in the front bank shot completely away,

I remember a little about that mission. Grabeski was low on fuel and could not fight the German. Several times he turned into the German as he began his attack and the German would turn away refusing to make a head on pass against the P-47.

quote:

Originally posted by ireload2:
I read of at least one high scoring ace that started in a P-47 was assigned to P-51s and then went back to the P-47 - simply because he wanted to get back alive.

Ireload has a point.

I don't want to put too many details on the net, but here is an excerpt from a letter of another friend of mine:

I got pretty superstitious after the war. After two tours and 133 combat missions without a scratch, and after watching many friends go down, I began to wonder just how long my luck would last. We had one lone P-47 left on the field, and to get my four hours of flight time in while I was waiting to return home, I flew it, rather than the Mustangs because it was a safer plane!!!

and finally, for one last time - maybe! And this is courtesy of Chuck Hawks:
(from"The Republic P-47 Thunderbolt")
"It will never be possible to definitively settle the debate as to which of the top three USAAF fighters was the best. For one thing, it depends on what you mean by "best." The Lockheed P-38, Republic P-47, and North American P-51 were all very good fighters. All three were versatile, had good range, and were deadly in air to air combat. The P-47 and P-38, in particular, had good survivability compared to most Axis fighters. The P-47 had a reputation for extreme ruggedness, and the P-38 offered twin engine reliability for long flights. My father, an aeronautical engineer in the USAAF during the war, once told me that the United States had produced three great land-based fighters in WW II, any one of which was capable of winning the air war. He was referring to the P-38, the P-47, and the P-51.

Top scoring American aces flew all three aircraft. And pilots who were faithfully served by one or the other of these fine aircraft tend to regard their particular plane as the best, as is natural.

Now read Rip Collins' words. Rip (back then Lieutenant Collins) was a WW II fighter pilot from the class of 44-C, Aloe Field, Victoria, Texas. Rip was assigned to the 40th Fighter Squadron, a Squadron in the 35th Fighter Group, Fifth Air Force, FEAF (Far Easr Air Forces) in the Pacific. (There is a link to the 40th at the end of this article.)

Rip flew both the P-47 and P-51 in combat in the Pacific. He is a big fan of the P-47, and took me to task for choosing the P-51 over the P-47 in my article "Best Fighter Planes of WW II." In that he is not alone, but he was the only correspondent who actually flew both in combat, so his words carry a lot of weight. At one point he wrote to me that he could give me a dozen reasons why the P-47 was superior to the P-51. Naturally, I asked him to do just that. After reading his reasons, I asked him if I could use his material (with credit) in an article about the P-47, and he kindly consented. From now on you are reading Rip's words.

For sure, fighter pilots are a different cut of guys. I guess we got spoiled because we were considered the "cream of the crop." In most cases, not all, but most, if you were going into the USAAC, USAAF, USAF, or whatever name it was called at the time, the majority of us young bucks wanted fighters (1055) and not multiengine (bombers, transports, surveillance, rescue, etc.). I've seen the disappointment at "wash out" time, when the primary and basic flight instruction group was split up prior to advanced training. The men that couldn't cut it went on to multiengine advanced training bases, while the "cream" went on to single engine bases to fly the AT-6 Texan (advanced fighter trainer).

It is not unusual to favor your own aircraft. In fact, it is a bit common. We probably all look at this in a different way, and in a different light. And if you didn't get to fly both the Jug and the Mustang, you were at a decided disadvantage. Here are my dozen reasons why the T-bolt was the superior fighter of the two.

1. The Republic Thunderbolt had a radial engine that could take hits and keep on running. I know of an actual case where a Jug brought a pilot back from Borneo after 8 hours in the air. The pilot landed with the master cylinder and three other cylinders blown out of commission. But the Jug kept chugging along, running well enough to bring its pilot back safely to his base at Morotai. I was there.

2. The Jug's radial engine was air cooled, instead of liquid cooled with a radiator system, like the Mustang's V-12. This is significant because one small caliber hit on an aluminum cooling line in a Mustang would let the coolant leak out, and when the coolant was gone, the engine seized, and the show was over.

I took a small caliber hit in a coolant tube over Formosa (Taiwan). When I landed back at base, my crew chief said, "Lieutenant, did you know you got hit?" I replied, "No." He continued, "You took a small caliber shell in the coolant tube on the right side of the engine. I'd give you between 10 and 15 minutes flying time remaining." I had just flown from Formosa, over nothing but the Pacific Ocean, to our fighter strip on Okinawa.

3. The P-47 could fly higher than the P-51. With its huge turbocharger, it could climb to over 40,000 feet. You could just look down at your enemy in a stall and smile.

4. The Jug could out dive the Mustang. As a matter of fact, it could out dive any enemy fighter, and at 7.5 tons loaded, it dove fast! I have personally been in a dive at what we called the "state of compressibility," at nearly 700 mph indicated air speed. I was scared to death, but with a tiny bit of throttle, I pulled it out at about 2,000-foot altitude, literally screaming through the sky.

5. The Thunderbolt had eight .50's. The Mustang had six. That's 33 1/3% more firepower. This made a major difference.

6. The later model Thunderbolt's could carry and deliver 2,500 pounds of bombs. (One 1,000-lb. bomb on each wing, and one 500 lb. bomb under the belly.) This was a maximum load and you had to use water injection to get airborne. But it would do this with sufficient runway. I have done this myself.

In addition to being a first class fighter, it was also a superb fighter-bomber and ground level strafer. Jugs practically wiped out the German and Italian railroads. I have strafed Japanese trains, troops, ships, gunboats, warships, airfields, ammo dumps, hangers, antiaircraft installations, you name it. I felt secure in my P-47.

7. The P-47 was larger and much stronger, in case of a crash landing. The Jug was built like a machined tool. Mustangs had a lot of sheet metal stamped out parts, and were more lightweight in construction. One example was the throttle arm. You can see the difference. What does all this mean? The safety of the fighter pilot.

8. The Thunderbolt had no "scoop" under the bottom. You can imagine what happens during a crash landing if your wheels would not come down (due to damage or mechanical trouble). On landing, it could make the P-51 nose over in the dirt as the scoop drags into the earth. In water (and I flew over the Pacific Ocean most of my 92 combat missions), it could cause trouble in a crash landing because the air scoop would be the first part of the aircraft to hit the water. Instead of a smooth belly landing, anything might happen.

9. The Thunderbolt had a much larger, roomier cockpit. You were comfortable in the big Jug cockpit. In my Mustang, my shoulders almost scraped the sides on the right and left. I was cramped in with all my "gear." I could not move around like I could in the P-47. I found the ability to move a little bit very desirable, especially on seven and eight hour missions.

10. The Mustang went from 1,150-horse power Allison engines to the Packard built Rolls-Royce Merlin engine that had 1,590 hp. The Thunderbolt started out with a 2,000 hp Pratt & Whitney engine, and ended up with 2,800 war emergency hp with water injection. That's close to twice the power.

11. The Jug had a very wide landing gear. This made it easy to land just about anywhere, with no tendency to ground loop. Many times we had to land on rice paddies and irregular ground. When you set the Thunderbolt down, it was down. In the Far East, England, Africa, and Italy, this helped you get down and walk away from it. To me, that was very important for the safety of the pilot.

12. The Jug's record against all opposing aircraft is remarkable. The ratio of kills to losses was unmistakably a winner. Thunderbolt pilots destroyed a total of 11,874 enemy aircraft, over 9,000 trains, and 160,000 vehicles.

But, the big factor, above all else, it saved pilots in great numbers. Ask most fighter pilots who flew both in active combat and they will tell you that, given a choice to fly either one in combat, it would be the Juggernaut hands down.

Now one last thing: the P-51 Mustang was a superb fighter. I am fully aware of that! But, considering that I flew about every kind of mission the Pentagon could dream up, and a few they didn't know about, I will rate that 8 tons of destruction first as long as I live, and no one can change my mind. I was there. Simply walk up to one of them and see for yourself.

The dictionary defines "juggernaut" as: "any large, overpowering, destructive force or object." That was the P-47 of World War II."

Once again, 'nuf said!

gee, I only meant the P47 looked like a clunker.

It certainly doesn't have the "style" of a P51 or a Corsair.

But if it has "room" I'm all for it.
When I sat in a P51 I had my knee up against the throttle quadrant and no left aileron.

Re Merlin, only meant the sound on startup.

I only flew up to 600hp P&W radials, and they ALWAYS kept going, even with cracked off heads hanging in the breeze, or fit for junk on landing etc.

OK, it looks like the P47 is the bee's knees.

My father who was a line chief in the 9th Air force (England, Belgium) said he witnessed a mock dog fight between a P-51 Mustang and the P-47.

He said that neither airplane could get the advantage on the other and they maneuvered until both were on the deck and they called it off. This was with experienced combat pilots in both airplanes.

The P-38 was an excellent gun platform for the tactical Air Force and would carry half the bomb load of a B-17.

quote:

But if it has "room" I'm all for it.
When I sat in a P51 I had my knee up against the throttle quadrant and no left aileron.

Okay, whole new ball game now. Did you ever notice that all fighter jocks are sort of the same breed and dimensions of a Jack Russell terrier???? If you were cramped in a P51 cockpit, try getting into a Spitfire sometime, then come back and tell us how much room you had. I'm 6'4" and about 300 lb and the first time I ever sat in the left seat of a B17 I thought I was going to have to have help to get out. Tried on a 'Flying Pencil' just for drill and it was even worse! For me, the cockpit in the L1011 is just about right, stretch out, relax and drink coffee while the big sucker flies itself. Oh, and the C130 is a nice large cockpit with enough room so you don't have to ease in and back out.
Some one has mentioned the mock dog fight between the P51 and the P47, both with experienced pilots, etc. and no clear advantage. I doubt they ever flew together but sure would like to have seen the same thing between a P47 or P51 and the old Navy Corsair, the F4U. That sled had a lot going for it and I cannot imagine being pulled through the air with that big old 3350 radial spinning the prop in front of me! What a ride that must have been! And don't forget, the Corsair had the best kill ratio of any fighter in WWII - Corsair pilots destroyed 2,140 Japanese planes over the Pacific at a kill ratio of nearly 11:1, a record unmatched by any other American aircraft.
Never had the opportunity to engage any of the famous WWII fighters except the Corsair, and these were flown by the French Navy in the early sixties. (The French bought the last of the Corsairs, the F4U-7, I believe, was the final design.) We probably could not have shot one of them down with the Terrier missile we carried on the cruiser I served on. The pilots had a tactic of coming in from dead astern, very low on the deck and straight up our wake. No separation from sea return and we could not get range lock and resolution with enough time to launch. Might have been a different story with the 5"/38 guns though - but we're speaking to airplanes here.

Really a terrific post by TrapperP from 26 November. I've been a big fan of the P-47 since I was a kid and have read Bob Johnson's book several times.

I'm surprised, though, that there's been no mention about the P-47's superior ability to roll in flight. Many folks underestimate the Jug as a fighter since it was a supreme ground attack aircraft. But, Johnson also stated that whatever the Jug may have lacked in maneuverability during a turn was more than compensated for by simply rolling the Jug inside an FW's or ME's turn during a dogfight.

The P-47 was truly a devastating fighter plane.

Cheers.

I always wondered, why three planes with the same basic radial engine and similar empty weights (F4U-1 = 8,873 lbs)(P47B = 9,346 lbs)(F6F = 9,042 lbs)the Jug was somewhat of a clunker, and the Corsair and Hellcats were deeemed to be excellent fighters? What about the design made them so different in dogfighting? Weren't they all zoom and boom fighters? s40

All three had R-2800's on them for power but just look at the wing on an F6F as compared to a P-47. The Hell cat has a high lift box wing that produces more lift at slower speeds. It also allows the aircraft to get on and off a carrier. The Hell cat had a great turning radius and a good climb rate but it still couldn't out turn a Zero.

The P-47 has a very clean, slick, speed wing made for going fast and diving. After all it was designed as a ground attack and was pushed into being a long range escort fighter.

The F4U is a combination of the two with both a very good turning lift wing as well as fairly sleek over all aerodynamic efficiency. But it like all of the carrier based fighters of the day had to give up some efficiency in speed for the lift ability to get them off and on a carrier.

What our carrier based aircraft lost in nimbleness they made up for in top speed, horsepower, fire power, armor and the ability to get above the enemy and set up for diving slashing attacks.

More Jug pictures I found on ebay.
"These are 4 great photos of Thunderbolts of the 350th FG 12th AF in 1945"

Notice you never see pics like these with other aircraft...


"Lt Dick Sulzbach shows Col Whitman the damage to his P-47 after hitting the ground while straffing in April 1945. "


"Lt Ed King's oil soaked P-47D after having a cylinder shot off but still returning to base."


" Lt King scowles at the oil soaked mess!"

http://cgi.ebay.com/P-47D-Thunderbolt-350th-FG-12th-AF-...QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem