Used to run into these guys in IND and at several military bases all over the world. Naples comes to mind, and Sigonella.

Another supplimental bites the dust.

http://www.gadling.com/2008/04/03/ata-files-for-bankrup...ll-operations/print/

This week saw the demise of Aloha and ATA. I wonder how many more are out before this is all over.

I'm guessing we'll see much more carnage.

quote:

Originally posted by surestrike:
This week saw the demise of Aloha and ATA. I wonder how many more are out before this is all over.

I'm guessing we'll see much more carnage.

Yeah, heavy checks in Tijuana, "forgetting" to pull scheduled inspections with subsequent fleet groundings, outsourced baggage handling, outsourced maintenance, totally corrupt FAA management, total absence of anything that passes as customer service...it's obvious that some of these airlines, notably Northwest, shouldn't be flying at all.

Are any of them worth a spit anymore. Shoot South West, the darling of the industry who LUV's you by the way, just "forgot" to accomplish a whole boat load of heavy checks.

They all suck. And as long as The FAA is in bed with the corporate pirates who are running these airlines nothing is going to change!

quote:

Yeah, heavy checks in Tijuana, "forgetting" to pull scheduled inspections with subsequent fleet groundings, outsourced baggage handling, outsourced maintenance, totally corrupt FAA management, total absence of anything that passes as customer service...it's obvious that some of these airlines, notably Northwest, shouldn't be flying at all.

Yall are scaring me! A friend and I are planning a trip to RSA Nov 08 and am booking the airfare next week. Any advice from you who have been in the drivers seat or are still there? Which airline or airlines would you recommend and which should we avoid?

OH wait it's not over.

Champion's dead and Skybus just took one to the brain too! This is looking like a full blown bloodbath!

Misssissippi.

Pay your money take your chances.

Any of the American Majors will still be safe bet. And hey the senior management is making millions on these little indiscretions. SO it's all good.

http://www.aviationplanning.com/asrc1.htm

The Perimeter Is Shrinking Fast
Air Transportation: Economic Outposts Are Falling

Think of the air transportation business - i.e., anything that involves making money using airplanes - as the old Roman Empire.

Changing economics and increased attacks by barbarians caused Romans to pull back the perimeters of the Empire, giving up territory it could not longer afford to protect. Peripheral outposts were abandoned simply because the cost of maintaining them began to exceed their value. It was the new economic reality: Shrink the empire down to the size that could be economically operated and defended.

That's where air transportation is today. Skyrocketing fuel costs are to the industry what Visigoths were to the Romans. A lot of what used to be viable businesses out on the perimeters of aviation are now uneconomic outposts that are being abandoned or falling to the attack of higher fuel prices.

Last week, more outposts started to fall. Four aviation entities - each different, but each operating on the outer edges of the fuel-besieged aviation industry - went down.

ATA's been operating on the economic edges of the industry for the last two years. Fuel costs drove it out of most of its scheduled passenger operations, and when it lost a major charter contract, it had no choice but to shut down. (Note that the Southwest code share was mostly the red-headed stepchild WN had to adopt to do the Midway gate deal.)

Aloha's main operations in Hawaii have always been on the edge. High fuel costs only made it worse, particularly for the carriers' old inter-island fleet of 737-200s. True, Aloha was around for over 60 years, but the airline business has made Hawaii a paradise for bankruptcy attorneys. Shut-downs include Mid-Pacific, Discovery, Royal Hawaiian, Mahalo, etc. Intra-Hawaiian flying is going to get even more shaky with $3 jet-A.

Champion Air - a squeaky-clean charter carrier - came to the conclusion that a fleet of 727-200s was no longer a ticket to the financial show. The fuel Visigoth took them out.

Skybus - High fuel prices have eliminated any margin for success of "alternative" air transportation schemes. And Skybus literally defined the term "alternative." But soaring t fuel costs only accelerated what was inevitable from the day they started flying. The Skybus business model doomed it from the start.

Skybus was unique - in that it was the only airline in history that tried to make it difficult for customers to do business with them. No phone number to call if there was a problem. Flying out of airports where alternative service was zero. Frequencies that left customers zapped in the event of a cancellation.

At the carrier's main focus city, Columbus, load factors hovered in the 70% range - lousy by today's airline standards. But when one considers that the first 20 or so seats occupied were sold at give-away $10 and up prices, the "real" load factor was more around 55%.

If oil was at $75 instead of $110, the result would have been the same, only a few more months down the line. It wasn't just fuel, and it wasn't economc factors that killed Skybus. It was an airline outpost way beyond the fringes of the Empire. Or, for that matter, reality.

What's In The Till Is All There Is. The outer perimeters of the air transportation business will continue to shrink in the coming months. It's a fundamental sea-change, not the result of cyclicality.

And there's no financial cavalry to come and save the day. When the revenues fall and cash runs out, there are very few financial safety nets left for small airlines. Hedge funds and venture capital sources are either tapped out or licking their wounds from earlier airline investments. Reports are that Yucaipa sank over $100 million into Aloha. One of the hedge funds that's been big in playing around with Delta and Northwest stock has told its investors they cannot cash out right now. Nobody knows what the "suitable and sophisticated" Wall Street firms that invested in Skybus are thinking now, except it's a lead-pipe cinch they aren't thinking about doing another airline deal.

The point is that the crisis is not temporary for some of these air transportation firms. It's not even a crisis, really - it's a finality. When the viability of a specific aviation business segment erodes or completely disappears, an infusion of fresh capital only delays the inevitable. It's like tossing money at a company that produces black-and-white TV sets. It may have been profitable in the past, but its product is now economically obsolete. It's the same with some sectors of the air transportation industry.

More Outposts Will Fall. Plan on more shut-downs and bankruptcies on the Outer Rim of the air transportation business. Probably sooner than later. Danger signs: any entities that don't have solid - and deep - revenue streams. Entities with high levels of excess aircraft capacity. And, critically, entities that have limited cash. Cash is time. Time is what's needed to restructure - if it's possible. If that's not possible, cash notwithstanding, the next stop is shut-down or the bankruptcy court.

At risk: Some charter carriers. Some third-tier scheduled airlines. Maybe even a small jet provider or two, what with the increasing glut of 50-seaters. The point is that the range of viable business applications for airplanes is narrowing quickly - and permanently.

Bottom Line: No Huge Consumer Impact. Not at great risk: Comprehensive network carriers. The core of the US airline industry is financially sound for now and the foreseeable future. They have the cash (time) to restructure - and most are doing just that. They have the ability to quickly shrink their operations (and most of the related costs) by parking cheap airplanes and in some cases dumping small jet lift.

At this point, don't expect any huge obvious changes for most consumers. The four shutdowns announced last week are all players on the periphery of air transportation. We'll hear panting reports about the "rash of airline shutdowns" but regardless of veneer stories on TV, there's not going to be major changes in the mainline US air transportation system.

At least, not for a while.

quote:

Originally posted by Mississippian:

quote:

Yeah, heavy checks in Tijuana, "forgetting" to pull scheduled inspections with subsequent fleet groundings, outsourced baggage handling, outsourced maintenance, totally corrupt FAA management, total absence of anything that passes as customer service...it's obvious that some of these airlines, notably Northwest, shouldn't be flying at all.

Yall are scaring me! A friend and I are planning a trip to RSA Nov 08 and am booking the airfare next week. Any advice from you who have been in the drivers seat or are still there? Which airline or airlines would you recommend and which should we avoid?

Yeah. Don't fly SAA. I posted a letter from a white SAA captain I got through the grapevine. It is scary what's going on over there. Of course, all the PC's, who've never seen more than the glimpse of a cockpit interior, chimed in and accused me of saying black guys can't fly, and all that shit, but from what the capt. said, I'm not getting on one of thse damned POS A 340's. If black Africans can fly, then why are about 99% of African carriers banned from the US? Why is the safety record on the continent the worst in the world? Why have the majority of white mechanics been hired away from SAA by foreign carriers? Why is there a pilot shortage world wide, except for South Africa? Black empowerment, that's why.

I flew back from Joburg to ATL in August '05 and saw an African four-striper boarding my aircraft. Didn't sleep well that trip, because I knew he got the job because he was a black African and I'd wager he was spoon fed and had his didy changed for him all the way into the left seat.

SAA used to be a great airline. Flew 747 200's and 400's. They retired them, black empowerment took over and unqualified managerial personnel were assigned to jobs they had no earthly idea how to perform, and the place is really going down the ladder. I wouldn't put my daughter or me aboard. I'd fly Delta.

quote:

Originally posted by jetdrvr:

quote:

Originally posted by Mississippian:

quote:

Yeah, heavy checks in Tijuana, "forgetting" to pull scheduled inspections with subsequent fleet groundings, outsourced baggage handling, outsourced maintenance, totally corrupt FAA management, total absence of anything that passes as customer service...it's obvious that some of these airlines, notably Northwest, shouldn't be flying at all.

Yall are scaring me! A friend and I are planning a trip to RSA Nov 08 and am booking the airfare next week. Any advice from you who have been in the drivers seat or are still there? Which airline or airlines would you recommend and which should we avoid?

Yeah. Don't fly SAA. I posted a letter from a white SAA captain I got through the grapevine. It is scary what's going on over there. Of course, all the PC's, who've never seen more than the glimpse of a cockpit interior, chimed in and accused me of saying black guys can't fly, and all that shit, but from what the capt. said, I'm not getting on one of thse damned POS A 340's. If black Africans can fly, then why are about 99% of African carriers banned from the US? Why is the safety record on the continent the worst in the world? Why have the majority of white mechanics been hired away from SAA by foreign carriers? Why is there a pilot shortage world wide, except for South Africa? Black empowerment, that's why.

I flew back from Joburg to ATL in August '05 and saw an African four-striper boarding my aircraft. Didn't sleep well that trip, because I knew he got the job because he was a black African and I'd wager he was spoon fed and had his didy changed for him all the way into the left seat.

SAA used to be a great airline. Flew 747 200's and 400's. They retired them, black empowerment took over and unqualified managerial personnel were assigned to jobs they had no earthly idea how to perform, and the place is really going down the ladder. I wouldn't put my daughter or me aboard. I'd fly Delta.

Speaking as a prejudiced insider, I would have to agree with this end statement - wholeheartedly agree! I think it is absolutely criminal what has been and is being done to SAA - plus forty something years involvement with the 'other' entity mentioned. I shudder to think that SAA and a lot of other things in South Africa may well be going the way of Rhodesia - absolute pity!

Yeah, it is.

I flew the 747 200 on a contract cargo run to several places for the "old" SAA. Great airline. Great service, well maintained aircraft and well trained aircrew.

The current bunch of cabin crew appears to have been brought out of the bush, given two weeks of training and a bath, and turned loose on the unsuspecting public. I've never met a more surly or unqualified bunch of cabin attendants.

As a comparison, I once flew Paris/Luanda on TAG Angola Airlines. They were running an old 1011. There were ten of us going in on a diamond mine support contract in the Hercs that were based in Luanda and Benguela. They only had eight first class seats. Although being the senior captain, I made everybody draw straws and, naturally, I ended up in coach as a result of my democratic approach. It was a good ride. The cockpit crew were Portuguese and the FA's were Angolan. Had good food, plenty of free booze poured from liters, and the airplane and lav's were very clean. Other than a wishy-washy yaw damper that acted up a bit, it was a good flight. I would ride TAG any day before climbing back on SAA. If you know anything about Angola in those days, (middle 90's), the whole country was a basket case, but the airline functioned well.

The hell with SAA. Grounding highly qualified white pilots in order to change the black/white cockpit ratio has, IMHO, added a degree of risk to flying on SAA that I am not willing to chance, now or ever.