I really don't want to start one of those interminable 308 v 30/06 type dicussions, but....

Ok, I feel the need for a .30cal rifle. Don't need a magnum. Application will be deer in the UK, mainly Sika and Fallow, Boar in Europe. There might be a trip to RSA in the next few years. I don't expect to take a shot on game much over 250m, if ever. I am into hunting not sniping.

For a European hunter, is there any practical value in a 30/06 over a 308win? Given modern loadings, premium bullets etc, is there much that a 30/06 180gr will do that a 308 165gr won't?

When you live in N Ireland you are never going to have a dozen centrefires for every application, one rifle has to cover a fair bit of ground.

What say you?

quote:

Originally posted by Claret_Dabbler:
For a European hunter, is there any practical value in a 30/06 over a 308win? Given modern loadings, premium bullets etc, is there much that a 30/06 180gr will do that a 308 165gr won't?

Brian,

I would say there is! Especially if you intend to hunt wild boar and plan on hunting Africa!
You can load the 30/06 down to 308 levels but you can't load the 308 up to 30/06 levels.
And for wild boar and african game the 220s grainers won't be too much!

Regards,

B.Martins

if you have a .308: keep it, if you buy something new: Take the .30-06: it´s a perfect hunting round. I have 2 of this kind and shoot everything from fox to boar with it & it is perfect. I use 180grs Nosler BT and Partitions.

If You need more information, please fell free to email me:

Klaus
www.titanium-gunworks.de

I'd say for most practical European hunting purposes, you'd get along just fine with a .308. However, if I didn't have a 30 cal yet and were to get one or the other I'd take an '06 every time, more versatile. I've settled on 180 gr Swift A Frames for both my Bockdrilling and Remy 7400. If I were to take an '06 to Africa would probably do some testing on the heavier bullets. For some strange reason, the 'ol 30 Cal Gov'ment 1906 has stood the test of time!! Now good luck Claret in picking out your Sauer 202, Waidmannsheil, Dom.

Good advice given on this topic. If you have a .308 stick with it, it will do exactly what you want it for. If however you haven't got a .30 calibre yet, go with the 30-06. It is more versatile, and as the guys have already said you can load up or down according to your needs. I have a .30-06 Tikka. It has been my number 1 rifle for years. It has done everything from rabbits to red stags.

Dom, how did you guess? It will be another Sauer. Might - probably will go synthetic this time.

I do not have a .30 at all. Current battery is a .22rf a .222rem and a 270win.

I suppose that is another consideration, the rifle will be a Sauer on a standard action size. No weight advantage to the S/A 308win.

Claret,
Are you keeping your 270? You might find the "06 a bit aggressive on fallow. I don"t use my 308 on anything smaller than red stags.
I shot a sika stag yesterday evening with my 243 at 120 mtrs, and he did"nt make it from one side of the feild to the other. I shot a similar one last year with the 308/150 gr bullet, and had loads of bruising and damage.
I can see your need for a 30 for europe, but a lot less than an "06 would do for local fallow and sika.
Everyone nedds a 243!
good shooting

Brass, I am thinking about the 270. If I do buy a 308 or 30/06, I might drop the 270 in favour of a 6.5x55 or even a 6.5x57.

Sorry not to get back to you about the Wicklow thing, but I am up to my neck in work. Will try ot speak to the guy over the next week or so.

Claret,

I think it is difficult to ever say one cartridge bashes a carcass more than another. Especially if you load yourself.

My 308 Went to Africa and Argentina with me shooting 165g&168g TSX's. It's fine for plainsgame There is nothing out there (especially in Europe) that I wouldn't take with the 308. The home loads dropped most of what I shot at in its tracks with virtually no meat damage an animals from piggies to Eland. The Federal Factory loads were so fast they did a fair bit more damage,although I still shoot them on Fallow and can't fault them

The only time I think that the 30-06 really has an advantage is when you start pushing the shot ranges out. If you are going to be shooting inside of 250yds most of the time, (and in the UK that will be subtantially less most of the time) then there is no advantage to the 30-06.

On top of that with the 270 you have an adequate round to take as a second gun on a plainsgame hunt if you end up looking at longer range savannah species.

Last thing to think about is that if you have either of your .30 cals and chop in the 270 I wouldn't get the sweedish as you will have an exclusively "military calibre" bunch of weapons at your disposal that might be a problem at some time in the future. Hence why when I was facing a similar dilemour I looked into the 6.5x57.

Just my tuppenth' worth!!!

Rgds,
FB

quote:

Originally posted by Claret_Dabbler:
For a European hunter, is there any practical value in a 30/06 over a 308win? Given modern loadings, premium bullets etc, is there much that a 30/06 180gr will do that a 308 165gr won't?

...in praxis and close as FB said, I'd say no - unless you plan to shoot a 200+ kg bear...just a flash of wit - ever thought about 8x57 IS?...

Mouse, to suggest a 8x57 to an english speaking person would be the same like to offer porc-meat to a muslim! This could be called the Omaha-Beach-syndrome!

Claret Dabbler
Since you already got .22lr, .222rem and a 270win. Why not a Sauer in 9,3X62 ?

Cheers
/JOHAN

I have three 8x57's and I love them but your right they arn't popular here in the us.
I think there is a 30 cal maximum in Ireland correct me if im wrong.
I also have a .308 and a couple of 30-06's. I'd go for as much power as you can get for those travels abroad.
I shot about 35 head of plains game in Zimbabwe with a 308 and had good results except for my zebra and eland. the zebra ran 200 yards and went back to feeding. I traded the 308 for my .458 and that did the job. The eland ran off and wasn't found for some time. My second eland I used a 9.3x74 and it droped on the spot.
If I was in your shoes I'd get a .300 win mag. I've taken game as small as rehbock with them without excessive damage but I don't mean to tell you what you need in your own country.
One other consideration is that both the .308 and 30-06 have a history as a military round. that limits your travels in certain countries like France and Mexico.

quote:

Originally posted by JOHAN:
Claret Dabbler
Since you already got .22lr, .222rem and a 270win. Why not a Sauer in 9,3X62 ?

Cheers
/JOHAN

Johan, I agree entirely. The battery you list to me is just about perfect for the travelling Euro hunter. With a 270 and a 9.3x62 you could hunt the world. I have always thought that something that needs hit harder than a 270win can hit, needs to be shot within the PBR of a round like the 9.3mauser - again under 250m.

Unfortunately, the chances of the local cops licensing any bigger that .30cal are pretty damn slim - better chance of the Euro millions tomorrow night.

Brian,

.30/06 Sprg.!



The only way to fly. The.308 Win. is a fun cartridge to play with and recoil next to nothing. If you were considering a fly-weight with short action & barrel set in a light-weight stock for a specialized purpose then I'd say go with this cartridge.

For a Sauer 202 the .30/06 will do everything a .308 will and then some, universal appeal, period, plus huge selections of brass, ammo & bullets from 110 grainers to 220's. I've owned three, worn out 2 of them and am happily working on wearing out #3, a Blaser R93.

Have fun with your choice.

For tracking wounded boars and red deers, I only use a .308 with 180grs Lapua-Naturalis. I used it in a R93 and now in a S202 Hardwood TT. In this short barrel (only 46cm), the .308 works perfect.

Claret Dabbler,
tell them it's for tracking "wounded" game in thick stuff, such as red stag, and for driven hunts in Europe on wild boar, moose in Scandinavia etc. Perhaps it would help if you mention that 308, 3006 and 8X57IS are not permitted in some countries

Cheers
/JOHAN

If you want to hunt in Spain, 308 win is not allowed in semiauto weapons.

In France, NO 308 win, 30-06 or any other military or ex-military calibre.

If you haven`t got a 30 cal yet, IMO 30-06 is the way to go.
I use 30-06 with 180 grs,and I have taken alsorts with it, from rabbits,foxes,plains game, leopard, boar.
As for range, as long as you know what the rifle is doing thats not an argument,although I have to say I am a stalker so like to get close, thats the whole idea.
Saying that I have taken some great shots with it, clients running Kudu @ 220 yrds,nailed dead ! have had some totally crap shots too, but we don`t go into those.
If you want (i dont ) you can load a 30-06 down to 100 grains and right up to 250 grains.
I don`t see any point in that, 1 round does it all in my book.
Also, it`s been around a while now, and has a good history and following.
As long as when you pick that rifle up it`s part of you and your comfortable and confident with it, thats the most important.

Well, just an idea for Your government (and all the other gun prohibiting and regulating countries too):

Have they ever thought, how much tax they will earn, when just 5 or 10% of the 800.000 Irish hunters (hope this number is true) will buy a new rifle, bigger than .30cal ? Each government wants to have money from taxes: here is a good, chaep and well respected way from at least a part of their electors... and those without relation to guns will not realy know the difference...

If you want a pleasant shooting .308 caliber rifle that fits in a small package, perfect for a lightweight rifle, I think you should look back in time and go for the .300 Savage. It's just about 30.06 velocities in the medium weight bullets. And of course you can also use it in France or the former French colonies. Brass is usually available in France.

quote:

Originally posted by Wink:
I think you should look back in time and go for the .300 Savage. It's just about 30.06 velocities

Jarrod, do I sense disbelief? Remington even chambered the Model 700 Classic in .300 Savage, Google it.

http://www.huntingmag.com/guns_loads/savage_0702/

You too can own one if you want to bid on it:

http://www.auctionarms.com/search/displayitem.cfm?itemnum=7837790

For about 270 pounds sterling it would be hard to beat the price in Europe, and for a firearm with as many aftermarket gadgets as one could wish for.


Here are a couple of pictures of my Savage Model 99 in .300 Savage:

Wink,
That is an exquisite 99EG! I have 3 Savages but, none dressed in the fashion of yours. The .300 is a wonderful round and I have found mine to work just as well as my .30'06 when using 150-165 grain bullets. Muzzle blast and recoil is much reduced, always a good thing for me. The .30'06 will give an extra 100 yard advantage though and, IMO, is at it's best with heavier bullets of 180 grains.
As a side note, I purchased a Remington 721 in 1968 chambered in .300. Being young, and believing I just had to have the last fps, I loaded that old girl pretty hot using IMR-4064 powder. I didn't have a chrono then but, the reloading manuals of the day indicated 2800 fps with the 150 grain bullet, or .308 territory. I became older and, hopefully, a little wiser.
Joe

quote:

Originally posted by Wink:
Jarrod, do I sense disbelief? Remington even chambered the Model 700 Classic in .300 Savage, Google it.

http://www.huntingmag.com/guns_loads/savage_0702/

You too can own one if you want to bid on it:

http://www.auctionarms.com/search/displayitem.cfm?itemnum=7837790

For about 270 pounds sterling it would be hard to beat the price in Europe, and for a firearm with as many aftermarket gadgets as one could wish for.


Here are a couple of pictures of my Savage Model 99 in .300 Savage:

The disbelief was the it is almost 30-06 velocities part.
I like your model 99, how much is a model 99 in good shape these days?

quote:

Originally posted by Jarrod:

The disbelief was the it is almost 30-06 velocities part.
I like your model 99, how much is a model 99 in good shape these days?

You are correct of course, the velocities are a little lower when sticking to SAAMI pressure specs, a requirement when using a Savage Model 99. However, in a modern bolt action like a Remington Model 700, many people load to a little faster velocities and you are in the same ball park.

I have no idea what a Model 99 is worth. Mine belonged to my father. He had it engraved in Germany in the early fifties when he was stationed there (and where I was born). Since I have the same name as my father (I'm junior) the initials engraved on the trigger guard happen to be mine; SO THIS ONE IS NOT FOR SALE!






If any of you Model 99 experts out there can help, I would like to find a peep sight for this rifle. Ideally it would be a no-gunsmithing model which could use the existing tang screw holes. Does anyone know if that exists?

Hi Wink
What a nice gun! have youbtried to reload it with heavier bullet like 180-200 grain för sanglier hunting? what kind of velocity you can get with that nice little cartidge?and vectan powders?
regards
yes

Hi Wink,

Nice rifle! I especially love the side panel carving. Is any other part of the stock carved as well?

I love the model 99. I’ve got one early 99F in 22 Savage HP from 1925. Sweet little rifle – takedown, 20†barrel. Unfortunately it’s been refinished, has a repaired crack through the forearm and was drilled for scope mounts. Still sweet though. I’ve got another 99 EG in 300 Savage on the way from the States. Still looking for a (late model) 99-F in either 300 Sav or 308 Win.

Getting a peep sight for that rifle should be a no brainer. There are always various sights going on Ebay at any moment. – E.g. THIS (this is a good price if it doesn’t double in the next two days. I paid a lot more for my Redfield peep)

You’ll be looking for one of the following: -
Lyman No. 1
Lyman No. 1A
Lyman No. 2
Lyman No. 2A (all of these non-windage adjustable)
Lyman No. 29-1/2
Lyman No. 30-1/2 (both windage adjustable but both are collectable and expensive)
(Application code “SA†for these sights. Should be stamped on the underside of the base)

Marbles Automatic Flexible (application code S1)

Redfield No. 70
Redfield No. 80 (both application code L - “LH†or “LT†for Hunter or Target knobs respectively)

There are also the Williams “Foolproof†and “5D†sights for your rifle but I’d prefer one of the above mentioned.

Photos of some of these sights can be found HERE

Here’s a mint Lyman 30-1/2. I have a similar sight that is also mint but with some light engraving on it. Just waiting to get a nice collectable 99 to mount it on. -







Claret – sorry for the thread hijack. Got a bit carried away seeing Wink’s rifle.

Cheers,

- stu

quote:

Originally posted by yes:
Hi Wink
What a nice gun! have youbtried to reload it with heavier bullet like 180-200 grain för sanglier hunting? what kind of velocity you can get with that nice little cartidge?and vectan powders?
regards
yes

The 300 Savage is not a good cartridge for the heavier .308 diameter bullets, especially when used in a Model 99 rifle. You cannot seat the bullet our any furthur than standard overall cartridge length because of the magazine and you can't load to higher than normal pressures. The loads in the Malfatti are NOT for a Model 99. They were developed by Alain Gheerbrant in a bolt action rifle chambered for the .300 Savage, with bullets seated furthur out than the Model 99 can take. It's better to stick to 150 and 165 grain bullets with this rifle.

Stu C, I have to admit a lot of ignorance about this rifle, since it has always been around the house I never thought much about it. Thanks for the leads on the tang sights. By the way, how does one know when it's an EG or an F or a G model?

I almost forget, no other wood carving, just the two panels behind the action.

Wink,

Lots of model variations with the Savage 99

EG – Pistol grip, Schnabel forearm. Non-takedown. 1935-1960.

F – there were two 99 F’s (and an earlier 1899 F). 1899 F = saddle ring carbine. First 99-F = lightweight takedown. Straight grip. Schnabel forearm. 1920-1940. Later 99-F = Featherweight rifle. 22†barrel. Pistol grip. Straight forearm.1955-1973. Post million serial number safety changed to top tang mounted switch.

G = Deluxe Takedown. Pistol grip. Schnabel forearm. 1922-1941

Stills lots of variations within these model designations. E.g. calibers offered, barrel length, stocks checkered etc.

You should look at getting the Douglas Murray book “The Ninety-Nine†if you’re interested in all the various models. Details HERE (scroll down). Or just hang out at the Savage Collectors forum.


Cheers,
- stu

Stu

Thanks for the info and the links.

Wink

Claret

Having had a .30-06 and numerous .308's I would go for the .308 unless you are tripping to Africa and want to start flirting heavy for calibre bullets around.

Although the 06 is an excellent calibre, the long case is an inefficient powder column which means you need more powder to gain the performance and hence this leads to more recoil.

The .308 is ballistically identical to the 06 unless you start talking heavier bullets and then the 06 starts to accelerate away.

I have loaded many .308's to exceed book value velocities of an 06. The 06 has no range advantage to this end and the percieved recoil is significantly more than the short case 30 cal.

Hi there

For all practical purposes stick with the 308 in the Sauer. Accuracy and speed counts more than power.

Mark

Short action - 308
Long action 30-06

You have a long action so go 30-06 unless you intend to moderate it.

I disliked the idea of 30-06 until I fired my BRNO that I bought for rebarreling. A leather covered Kick Eeze pad tames it enough for me. It kicks no more than my 7x57 but has better ammunition availability.

IMHO a 30-06 is the best way to acheive the 308 velocities printed in load books!

Thanks for that lads, I think I will go with a Sauer Classic Synthetic in 30/06.

Unless I go for a lightweight outback in 308... This is confusing. Just need to raise some cash.

Any problems with the 30/06 in Slovenia? My hunting buddy has just bought a litle place there, somewhere in north west Slovenia. Says there are lots of Boar there?

Claret

Tha 30-06 will serve you well and even though it is said that the 308 is an inhenrently accurate calibre (which it is) the 30-06 I had was a real tack driver.

You have a very nice and sensibly spread list of chamberings under .270.

So you need to step up and 30 cal ist max for practical purposes.

Mil cal´s are out. ( I am searching for a "travelling gun", so I am thinking along the same lines ). Forget .308 and .30-06.

May I suggest:

.30 R Blaser for SS or Combo guns ( 12/70 with XP proof over .30R Blaser? )( rimmed equivalent of 300 H & H´s "Super Thirty"? )

or .300 Win mag, or better: .30 WSM.

I have NO experience with the last one. For max versatility ( and MAX recoil ) perhaps you might get a .30 RUM???

Just my .02 ... H

One thing here Claret,if you decided on a 30-06 (the proper choice IMO) I wouldn`t go for a lightweight.
It may and i stress may give you a perceived recoil problem.
Also plastic pigs shouldn`t be allowed

If you want a rifle with a cartridge based on the 30-06 then you need to check this site http://www.z-hat.com check out Hawk Cartridges magnums w/o the belt.