Yesterday lunch time I put out a high seat overlooking a spot particularly favoured by roe in bad weather (which was forecast). Leaving early in the afternoon I got absolutely soaked on the way in - oh well at least I would get there before they came out. Not a bit of it! There they were in the corner grazing away sheltered from the howling wind but getting very very wet. They must have been hungry.

I crawl much closer. The doe gradualy feeds towards the ditch and is finaly broadsid with feet in the ditch with a high bank behind - she appears to be going in so I gradualy take up the pressure on the trigger. At the shot she jumps as if hit and runs into the wood. I reason that the others might come back out again later so make my way to the high seat and sit drinking hot choclate in the rain. They do come back out but wind me and bugger off.

It's time to find the doe as it's getting pretty dark. Cast the dog and immediately start to worry - she's not acting very keen. Much farting about including long detours where I know that she's following foot sent. After 15 minutes I cast her one more time wondering how the hell I could have missed when all seemed so good. The dog vanishes, I start to search first cursing and then very worried - what if she's cought up on her collar the undergrowth is thick bracken and I'd never find her. 10 minutes later the LED is seen together with a pair of bright eyes - Worry turns to joy as I see the dead doe at her feet. High lung shot.

Having done the gralloch it becomes apparent that the bullet went neatly between 2 ribs at entry. The near side lung has a neat hole through it, the off side is bigger but not huge. The exit is a decent size.

The distance from where she was shot is 75yards - a very uncharacteristicaly long way.

I put it down to two things - first high lung shots generaly take quite a while to kill dear - I have found this repeatedly.

Second the doe was in a position where her skin and musculature were quite far over. As soon as the holes were made she moved whereupon the skin covered the holes in the rib cage and delayed the deflation of the lungs.

I don't think that being a 243 made much negative difference at all.

Thanks for the debrief 1894, what bullet were you using? Sounds like it held together rather well and didn't tear the lungs too much.

As they say no bullet is perfect 100% of the time and something which expands violently without even hitting a rib would probably be too soft for general application.

Was the shot in line with the shoulder or a hand width behind? I would be interested by how much damage was done to the lungs.

Federal factory with sierra 85grBTHP - chrono'd at 3,300fps, range was 75yards so impact about 3100fps?

Neat calibre sized hole in nearside lung, much bigger in farside. Impact a couple of fingers behind the shoulder but quite high. Rain probabaly washed what little blood there was.

I dont think the 243 is to blame. I've seen foxs hit with a 243 100gr sp and they have made it 70m!

I've decided there is no science to some of the reactions I get from deer. They do some weirds stuff on occasion.

I shot 2 bucks a couple of years back that were stood next to eachother. Same shot placement from the same seat with a 90gr 243. one went 5yds and the other went 600+m

To be honest, given you took the shot then went to the seat directly, it's obvious that you were confident with the shot.

A good result in the end, but like you I would not blame the 243 in the least.

What is the meat damage like n the 85gr Federals? One thing I have found with federal factory ammo is thatthey seem to do a lot of damage. I've only seen 3-4 different loads but nnone have been easy on the meat damage. Is it a US thing for pushinng the bullet at high velocities?

Rgds,
FB

My suspect concern, instead, the velocity still too high at that distance, that made the bullet work bad.

I had in the past some problem like this with various calibers, and, analyzing, I always found that a certain caliber begins to work well at a certain distance, and becomes deadly after that distance.

Some example:
Cal .243Win, animal Fallow deer, distance 60 meters. After the shot it runs away like untouched, only the Hungarian ranger understand that it was deadly wounded It has been found at 150 meters of distance;
Cal 6.5x55, animal Roe deer cub, distance 80 meters. After the shot the cub were still alive, immobilized, but not dead.
Cal 6.5x55, animal Roe deer cow, distance 60 meters. After the shot runs away over a little hill, get back runs over another little hill and there finally dead.
Cal. 7x64, animal Roe deer cows, distance from 100 to 150 meters. After the shot they run away like untouched, 100 / 200 meters running in the putza, then the dead. When shooted at about 180 meters they were turned off like a blowed candle.

All the animals were well and deadly hitted. Over the described distances with the same rifle/cartridge combination with the same kind of wound often dead in theyr tracks or made only few steps.

A good observation Stefano.
I have shot roe with 243W, 308W, red deer with 270W, and moose with 35 Whelen that took off like an express train on three legs with pulp for a heart. All on lesser distances then 60 meters.

On longer shot, + 100 meters, on roe and red, they have dropped lik a sack of potatoes.
And we are talking lung/heart shot, not CNS.

On the other hand, the fallow doe I shot with Artemis.´s 308W Mauser in Baldoc in February, just jumped around a couple of times and fell over dead. Shooting distance...approx 20 meters I guess.

Blesbuck, Impala and Steenbuck hit with long shot/375 H&H/270 gr fell on the spot.
While Blue wildebeest ran + 200 meters on three legs with punctured lungs and the big veins on top of the heart clipped clean off.
Shooting distance less than 50 meters.

Not easy to summon up, they surprice me all the time I guess

By the way...a good story 1894

Roe are incredibly tough little deer. The farthest a deer that I shot ever made it was a Roe doe shot at about 60 yds, with a perfect heart/lung shot from the 308. I found her 1/2 hr later(no dog with me) after finding bits of lung where she had fallen a couple of times.
I have shot Roe with 22 centrefires, 243 and 308. I class the 243 as the perfect Roe calibre.
(some here will know of my love of the 243!)
Here in NI, we have a 100gr minimum bullet weight for all 3 deer(Red,Sika and Fallow), so I have stuck to 100grs and the 243 for everything and always had good results.
There is just no saying what a deer will do when hit, unless you want to be like the Yanks and shoot them in the shoulder with a Win Mag!
All you need is to go back and shoot another one, and you"ll feel fine about it!
good shooting

I shot a Sika hind a few years back with a 243, 100 gr Sierra BT loaded with 43 grains of H4350, which if memory serves did somewhere around the 3000 fps mark. This was a high double lung shot and she ran about 120 yards. We found pink frothy blood at the point of impact, so although obviously a good hit she took off as if she had just been frightend. When I finally got to look at her lungs all there was were four tiny holes. The shot had entered between two ribs so it did not meet much resistance on the way through apart from her lungs. She just had a slow puncture and did not run flat until 120 yards further up the road. I always put it down to missing the heart / a lack of resistance and too much speed to make the bullet work. She was always going to go down with her lungs punctured it was just a matter of when. I have to say that I still use the .243.

In contrast I have never had a Sika Stag, which are hard to kill being tough buggers, go more than 15 yards. This is with a 6.5X55 and I have been fortunate enough never to replicate that high lung shot again, always managing to either hit the heart ot wreck it in some way using Hornady 129 grain Interlocks.

There again, you can only do your best up until you pull the trigger, after that it is in the lap of the Gods

John

I think if an animal (not just deer) is alert and knowns that you are there (or can see you) that they will run some sort of distaence when hit (apart for head and neck shots). thats why this is the greatest sport in the world!

Yeah I should say that I've shot about 6 boxes of this stuff at roe with completely normal results - just one of those things that happens every now and again.

Adam,

I think it's just a one-off and certainly don't consider the either .243 Winchester or the 85 gr. Sierra HPBT's to be at fault.

Like Brass Thief I'm mad about the .243 Winchester & Roe Deer. Just about the right cartridge & bullet size, weights and power for those small Deer. Had more so-called "Bang-Flops" with it than any other cartridge and on the other hand shot a Roe Buck at @ point-blank range; vapaorized his heart and watched him do the 100 meter "Greyhound" dash - go figure.

I've also use the Sierra 85 gr. HPBT's and found them to be an excellent Roe Deer bullet; although some today would Poo-Poo the use less than a "Non-Premium" bullet on game - WTF-O?

Personally, I think you have it pegged with the position of the animal, and resulting taught skin over the bullet holes issue.

When I took on a peice of ground with Reds as well as Roe, I used it as an excuse to get a 308. When I ran into Roe with 150 gr interlocks in the 308, they did"nt go down any quicker than when hit with the 243/100 grs, I just got more meat damage.
Shot placement is the biggest variable, as 308 says, the deer being aware of the threat has a big effect too. At the end of the day, I don"t expect a heart shot deer to just fall over immediately. If they fall to the shot, it is often a little far forward, or hit the opposite leg on the way out.(One of the biggest influences on me as a novice used to tell me to wait till the deer had one leg behind the other! yeah right, I"ll do that!)
enjoy it all for what it is.
good shooting