I'm posting a couple of photos of my last red stag on this forum for your viewing. Not European but originally from Europe ( a few generations ago).

This was a free range red deer stag taken in an area not known for red deer. I was in fact drawn for a fallow trophy ballot hunt in my local deer hunting club and this was classed as a "cull". If this is a cull I will cull hunt ALL the time.


The 11-point red stag


Another photo of the stag - on the ground

[ 11-21-2002, 16:18: Message edited by: NitroX ]

John

Put me up on the list for your cull hunts

Thats a nice stag

NitroX,

Very nice stag; those beams seem very heavy, they remind me of a Wapati (sp?)!!

Please share details of the hunt....

regards,

Pete

Christer

I like your new graphic, especially where the background is transparent. Very professional.

Pete

This red stag is from a herd established from animals which escaped from a deer farm about 50 kms away several years before. Thus one of the reasons the property owners wanted them killed and that they were classified as a "cull".

I do not believe the animal has wapiti blood. I haven't heard any mention of these animals being hybrids and they have been all acceptable for inclusion into the Douglas Score trophy registers (which a hybrid red/wapiti cross would not). I have never had mine entered. This animal doesn't have the "crowning" of the tines. My other red stag trophy from New Zealand does and is a classic 12-pointer "royal". I think if he had been granted a few more years life he would have developed at least 16-points plus and been a monster. There was one just like that taken the same year - two weeks after mine by a friend.

PS The wapiti crosses I have seen show fairly distinctive wapiti colouring characteristics eg tawny lighter coloured chests and manes. And also have considerably larger body sizes. This animal was a pretty standard sized Aussie red deer that has had excellent feed.

But if you want an unusual trophy you have to see some of those wapiti/red crosses! Huge antlers and body size with some of the looks of reds as well. A property in SE South Aust has numerous these sorts of animals. But in my view its better not to cross them (unless its for velvet producion) and better to shoot out any evidence of cross breeding and not mix herds.

[ 11-22-2002, 04:54: Message edited by: NitroX ]

NitroX, your stag looks like a regular Red to me (Cervus Elaphus) with no Wapiti (Cervus Canadensis) genes. It's a mature adult all right but judging from the photos, I don't believe he'd ever have developped crowns and never would have reached the "capital" status. At his size and age, he should have been a 12 pointer or more + crowns. Being what we Europeans call a "crownless, perpetual 10 pointer", he falls into the cull category and you did the right thing. Had he been genetically tops, this is what he should have looked like, an example of a subject to be spared, waiting for his reaching top condition :

This being said, genetically perfect ot not, they're all as challenging to hunt, so congrats to you for a perfect conclusion to a great stalk

[ 11-22-2002, 17:52: Message edited by: Andr� Mertens ]

NitroX,

Not suggesting it was a cross, just that the beam seemed pleasingly heavy/thick from the picture, in fact i did not realise you guys had hybrids over there. I know there was an attempt to introduce Wapiti into Scotland to improve the trophy quality of the reds there, but as only a very limited number were introduced, the experiment failed & they had no long term effect.

We now know the main limiting factor up there to body and trophy size is the comparitively poor quality food and harsh climate.

I don't know enough about Reds to suggest if this was an improving beast or an old guy "going back"; I would really need to look at the teeth for clues...

How widespread/common are reds in Oz??? I know they really took off in New Zealand....

regards,

Peter

[ 11-22-2002, 16:09: Message edited by: Pete E ]

Pete,

The first Red deer in Australia were a gift from Queen Victoria in the 1870’s (1873?) and were released in Queensland not far from Brisbane. This herd still exists. The Red stag is actually on the Qld state coat of arms.

I believe the Reds in NZ were released at about the same time. Nowadays there are reds throughout S.E. Qld, Victoria and South Australia that I know of, but I’ve only hunted them in Qld.

I was in Qld this Oct. The Reds had cast but there were also Rusa in the area. I didn’t like the heads on any that I saw, so took one Rusa hind for the landowner’s freezer and one Red hind for myself. Also got 2 shots off at dingoes while out spotlighting, but shot high both times.

While there, I saw a shed full of antlers. I think NitroX’s compares favorably with most I saw. The average was around 10 points, but not as heavy as NitroX’s.

Thanks Stu,

So what deer do you guys have in huntable numbers?

Fallow
Red
Rusa
Sambar
Chitel ??
Sika ??

Wapiti (not sure if it is classed it as a true deer) ?

No Roe or Muntjac though???

Regards,

Pete

Pete,

There's fallow, red, sambar, chital, rusa (javan & molucan) plus the only huntable hog deer in the world (in Victoria). No Sika that I know of. Maybe Wapiti on a game farm, and maybe some escapees around the place, but I haven't heard of any herds. No Roe or Muntjac either.

I've been sambar hunting, but never conected with any trophies. That's probably the toughest of any hunting in Australia. In Oct I saw hundreds of red and scores of rusa in a 5 day period. I've heard the Chital in Nth Qld can be like that as well.

Stu

Great news for you! We have huntable Hog deer here in the UK. A Friend has a breeding herd on his ground - with some truly fine stags. Fenced for sure - but only to preserve the herd.

A fine looking Red you have there. The first I shot was down in a blind valley - close on 45 degree sides, it took me 55 mins to drag it out onto the top where I could get a 4wd to it. A distance of 70 yds! Learn't something about shooting big Red deer that day!

Regards from sunny Devon in the UK! IanF

Nice stag Nitro.

I would love to hunt deer,I might get the chance if I get posted to QLD in 2005!
I kinda like the idea of a cross, what I think would look good on a wall is a fullblood Red, full wapati and a cross. I've seen a pic of a cross red/wapati from NZ, it was bloody huge!

Bakes

Here's the story. I posted most of the NitroExpress.com site so sorry if it repeats some stuff.

*******

I was hunting for a balloted trophy Fallow deer on a property which my local deer hunting club is managing. But when I came across this red deer stag I didn't hestitate.

Several of the property owners in the area wanted all the red deer shot out. They liked having fallow deer in the area, but believed the reds damaged too many trees and also brought in more poachers. The reds originally escaped from a deer farm 50 kms away several years before and eventually moved into this area where they had been in the wild for at least five years. Whether or not it was good to shoot them out was irrelevant as one way or another they would be the herd being too small and the country too open if they are not wanted. Personally I love seeing red deer.

The previous year I had been hunting on a neighbouring property and we had come across a nice strong 6-pointer stag with good body size. I would have taken him for venison plus a young stag skull mount for the wall, but the observor didn't know whether we were allowed to shoot them. When we left at the end of the weekend the property owner said' Yes, shoot every red you see." So I missed out on a 6-pointer but took a nice 11-pointer instead a year later!

We had been hunting for several hours being out in the hills before dawn. We moved along one range of hills with cropping paddocks at their foot to the North. In one of the "fallow" paddocks we sighted 40 fallow deer but no good stags and moved on. Crossing a couple of open paddocks with interpersed trees to the parrallel range of hills we climbed the first hill. Still no deer. Returning towards the camp we hunted along the ridge line which necessitated climbing up and down gullies which cut through this range with dry creeks leading down to dams. Some of these areas are very good for deer but they are always wary and often spot you as soon as you crest the ridgeline. A good dealing of "glassing" the hills, trees, shadows and fields is usually required.

Walking down one such gully after leaving a line of gums we entered a grassy area with a thickly foilaged tree near the gully bottom. Suddenly a stag rose from the ground from the side of the tree and looking at us turned at ran down into the gully and began to climb the opposing hill face. The stag wasn't a fallow but a very nice red. The ground to the left and right of the tree was open as was the opposing hillside. The creek was shallow with only low banks. So the stag had at least a hundred metres to go before reaching any cover. Climbing the hillside also slowed it down but it was facing directly away from me. I didn't hesitate and took a "Texas heart-shot" and as the stag stumbled and turned a little put another two quick shots into its chest taking out the offside shoulder. the stag was down and out.

That left the task of getting the animal out which was made easier by getting a landcruiser utility almost to the stag. The hillsides while quite open are littered with numerous large rocks which in the grass can not be seen. Gutted the animal and then walked back to camp for a vehicle. Met some of the other club members at the camp who were hunting on another property. They came out to help and also have a look at the stag. Back to camp and caped out the stag.

As this was only a cull, I still had a ballot for a Fallow trophy but didn't see anything else on the way in and out so didn't need to be greedy . There was reports of a DS 220 plus Fallow stag in the area so I would have been tempted if I saw him!

The fallow in the area are a mixture of menil and red fallow deer. In the past the club when it was legal introduced high quality menil fallow with excellent genes to improve the herd. The "red" fallows are often treated as culls as South Australia has some of the best menil fallow herds in Australia and does not have the blacks, whites, red, etc say like in Tasmania.

By the way, another club member took a 10-pointer (corrected from 12 in my original) with less weight the same year and a friend took a 16-pointer of fabulous size also that same year. A bloody good year!

My stag while a eleven pointer has one small point developing in one of the upper forks so just manages to become an eleven under our rules. In any case it is a nice heavier antlered animal and a good trophy in Australia.

Nitro i reckon thats a handy stag you nailed mate--anything with a bit of weight in the beams is far more attractive to spindly multi pointers that often come out of Oz.Fella`s i see references to Wap`s and Red`s well one of the worlds foremost authorities on deer Bruce D Banwell has written of wapitoid influence in Europe dating back to the early Roman days from when they sourced the known world for stags for their blood games in the arenas.So we can presume that the reds of today in europe have a small percentage of Wap in their blood.How long is he mate.

[ 11-23-2002, 06:44: Message edited by: gryphon ]

Andre

I think you are probably right about the stag not developing into a "royal" style head. As I said the 11th point was only just a nub and I think it probably would have developed another tine rather than a cup.

Unfortunately selective culling for trophy maintenance and improvement isn't really the standard anywhere in Aust or NZ (to my experience ??). We do try to cull out "humels", maintain the herd's colour eg menil fallow for this area's herd. Weakly antlered bucks are also sometimes shot out or those with unusual formations. The European system of managing a herd culling out numbers when young, shooting out inferior stags along the way and allowing the master stags to fully develop and maybe go back a little really isn't practised here which is a pity. On the othe rhand introducing very high quality animals from deer farms has worked to improve antler quality a lot and also prevent in-breeding issues which were once a problem with some herds. Herds do not naturally inter-breed as they are usually too isolated from eath other.

I will find a photo of my NZ red stag. That looks like one of yours "to be spared".

Pete

Red deer exist in Australia primarily in the Brisbane and Mary Valleys of South East Queensland. There are also some in the Grampians Range of Victoria but their antler quality is poor. There were reports of some in NSW near the Snowy River area but I do not know if they still exist. I believe there are some reds in the New England area of NSW. SA used to have very big herds in the South East of SA around 1900 but they died out. Now there is a big herd huntable behind wire (100,000 acres +) in this same range. The herd I hunted was isolated and free range. I would think there are more herds from escapes from deer farms and intentional releases as well. When deer breeding prices dropped some hunters did buy a lot of deer and release them, especially in NZ where new herds popped up all over the place.

NZ is still a fantastic place to hunt reds and I plan to soon again.

Hybrid red/wapitis. I will see if I can dig out some photos from a deer farm and post them. They are magnificient animals and when you see a velvet herd of several hundred mature stags ...

To add to Stu C's comments
(from my knowledge - could be others - if so please post their exact locations and perferably GPS co-ordinates ). Added to this there are some game farms where you can hunt eg the SE SA farm which has the lot even (tame) Water Buffalo.

Fallow are in SA - at least 6 herds, Victora (1 herd +), NSW (2 herds +), SE Qld. Biggest herds are in Tasmania.

Chital - mainly near Charters Towers in Northern Queensland where they are on 5 properties.

Reds - as mentioned above

Rusa - NSW Royal National Park (javan) and surrounding areas. Some islands in NT Gulf of Carpentaria (moluccan). Best place for Rusa is New Calendonia but haven't been there yet.

Hog deer - Gippsland coast of Vic - great hunting and there is a $10 ballot open to foreignors too on Nat Park land (if interested email me).

Sambar - the premier trophy and like Stu C I still haven't shot a trophy yet either. Spreadout in the Victoria alps from Lake Eilddon to the border and across into NSW. Not a herd animal and usually only in 1s to 3s and in difficult thickly forested and bush mountain country. Great hunting though. Also in NT on Aboriginal land (can't remember the peninsula - ??)

Roe deer ? An absolute shame. They were introduced but didn't survive. I see so much country that would be perfect for roe and with their breeding rate (dropping 2 fawns) lots of potential hunting.

No muntjac either.

Wapiti can only be hunted on a game farm or two.

Everyone

Thanks for the comments and sorry for the long posts.

Nitro did you see my post on hunting reports from around the world on this forum? if not go to number 13 on the list about the monster fallow buck,scroll down to a pic i posted of a wapiti like no other.Always got room for a keen hunter in our sambar camps have a look at my stags on my signature on that post,non commercial just interested in hunt swaps etc.From Vic but working in Qld at the moment(Gold Coast)

[ 11-23-2002, 06:57: Message edited by: gryphon ]

gryphon

I have had a look at your site a couple of times and drooled at the sambar.

Will semd you an email.

sorry about the bum steer re the big wapiti you will find it here NitroX http://www.serveroptions.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=45;t=000031 and here is my last one from a couple of months ago.

[ 11-23-2002, 13:08: Message edited by: gryphon ]

NitroX

Congratulations

Very nice stag. what is the weight of that trophy?

I have to Echo cchunter, cull hunt here we come
/ JOHAN

Gryphon

Nice sambar. You will have to show me some of their hiding spots one day . You certainly can find them.

Length of the red? No idea. I have a score sheet somewhere ???

(That is an amazing wapiti. I would have to get higher ceilings.)

Johan

How do you measure the weight? It usually isn't done down here. The head is actually still just a skull cap and antlers. Not mounted yet as a shoulder mount or on a board.

[ 11-24-2002, 09:04: Message edited by: NitroX ]

Fella`s the New Zealand record for weight for a wapiti is an incredible 48pounds without lower jaw Here it is

[ 11-25-2002, 03:53: Message edited by: gryphon ]

Hi John,

I think I shot his big brother in the same place.
Mine was a wapiti gros.
Good Red you got there.What caliber and what brand of rifle did you use?
I cant wait to watch the video,did you send it?
Weidmansheil!
Martin
P.S. Have you been at the A.D.A. Dinner last week?

Martin

I used a Parker Hale 1200 30-06 with 150 gr Nosler Partitions at about 2,900 fps. Seemed to do the "stuff" OK.

Where did you hunt your wapiti cross? Down South or Mid-North? This hunt was Mid-North. Will send you an email.

I picked up the videos only on Friday. Took a week for the company to copy them when they originally quoted 24 hour turnaround. Didn't get into town yesterday to post them - both batteries on my Landcruiser were flat. Again! Sending them off this afternoon.

Hallo John
I shot my Stag on a cull Hunt with a w.Acomark
7 mm STW
120 Gr.Barnes X MOLLY>
at 3580 ft ps
in the mid -North

weidmanns heil
Martin

Martin

Do you have any pics of your wapiti/red cross?

PS In answer to your earlier question, I didn't go to the ADA Annual Dinner. My diary has been in a mess and triple bookings + work for some weeks.