Good afternoon Gentlemen,

Mouse's superlative account of his recovery of that red stag has got me thinking about using open sights for the sort of shooting we do here Europe.

I appreciate that for hill and field stalking it probably isn't the ideal form of sighting system but for woodland stalking, where shots will be at short range and more often than not with only a few seconds to shoot?

What form of open sights do people use and what are their limitations in terms of distance and light and so on?

I'm trying to decide whether or not to put the open sights back on my 30.06 and invest in some quality QD mounts, open sights would been very handy in Africa for example, I might have got that warthog we bumped into at twenty yards if I had been using them.

Regards,

Amir

When I was young it was not far long before that using a telescopic sight was considered some sort of foul perversion!

If you are going for QD sights then I think that New England Custom Guns make a marvellous thing that fits on the rear Apel mount.

But personally I'm not a fan of Apel as they seem like just an expensive version of a Redfield turn-in mount...in that they ALSO wear out!

Open sights generally take longer in that you must align them. For the UK it's a stunt (that I myself will do one of these days)They are also poor in low light - the sort of light you wouldn't consider poor until you try irons.

QDs are generally better the simpler they are, thusly the Warnes and Talleys are better than Apel etc which are generally complicated and high.

If you want to shoot fast try a 1.5-6x42 on 1.5.

Amir it's nothing a 1-6x 24 wont sort out mate...

On the lowest setting it's about a close to open sights as I want to be.
K

quote:

Originally posted by Ghubert:
I might have got that warthog we bumped into at twenty yards if I had been using them.

...you may as well missed the other 5 that were 200yds or more out...

I've been shooting irons from beginning, since all my and my father's rifles were fitted with fixed mag. scope - either 4x or 6x magnification, so when I was using a particular rifle on driven hunts ect. I took the scope off. But all this is just in vain once you get yourself a scope with changing mag. i.e. 1-4x, 1,5-6x, 2,5-10x...with magnification between 1x-2,5x irons are more or less left for a backup system if scope or mount gets screwed.

Seriously - as 1894 said it is a stunt, up to a point. One can shoot with irons to hit, but that is not good enough since I believe one should always shoot to kill or don't shoot at all. Now we are getting there - I will use a roebuck out in the open as a reference and I will speak just for myself.

Basicaly you are torn between your sight and light all the time, with light dividing into 1. light needed to see the sights and 2. light needed to see your target - many times this one is decisive. I guess anybody can shoot irons out to 25m rather good. Once you extend the range to 50m things are getting interesting but still nothing serious - with good setup and a bit of practice it can be done - under good light conditions even 60m shouldn't be of concern. However steping over the 60m range things are getting harder. It takes quite some time to find a good set of irons that your eyes will like...I've changed 3 setups in 3 years to get me where I am today:

1. Good for out to 30m - over that it is a stunt



2. Good for out to 80m - over that - stunt



3. Last one - with those I am confident out to 100m (roebuck) or 150m on stag under clear conditions (light and obstacles) - but they have some potential and I am still learning - I believe that with enough practice 200m shot on a red stag shouldn't be a problem



It takes a lot of practice to get the confidence needed. And a confidence is the key. Beside - if I want to hunt with my rifle here I have to pass a shooting exam in the spring every year - with scoped rifle it is 3 subsequent hits in 10cm (4") dia on 100m with irons it is 3 on 60m.

No they are not practical at all, but shooting them well is a skill per-se - it is so immediately direct, that makes shooting with scope look like watching TV...yes for me they rise shooting and hunting on a higher level no doubt, but to get it done takes time and effort many would consider plunged in dept.

amir

shooting with the irons is an aquired taste, that demands quite a bit of practise time, but since i know you actually like to shoot, it shouldent be anything other than a fun chore.

in my expirence and as mouse so eloquently have shown, a diopter sight setup is by far the most accurate to use for distance work.

for out to 100 yards, i like the english express sights, they do demand practise for the long shots but a the best imho for the fast shooting at close or moving targets.

now this is just if you are bit by the traditionel africa bug, if it is because you dont want to miss the different shots offered on a stalk, please just go with the very good advise offered further up this tread.

i highly reccomend the nightforce nxs compacts, especially the 2,5-10 x 24 it is classic lines with a huge magnificiation for its class.

when you are down into the 1,1-2,5 magnification class you can actually shoot them like you would a redpoint, which is with both eyes open and get the full use of both worlds.

so how about that 12 bore

best

peter

Agree with the other posters that it is more of a challenge than an aid outside of certain limited circumstances.

As you saw when we took those barley field fallow - shots that would be a slam dunk with a tasco suddenly became challenging with an open sighted 375!

As regards bushveld hunting with open sights, I would much rather keep my scope on 3/4x so that I can thread the bullet through a gap in the thorns to find the kudu's shoulder. One minute later when you spot a beast 220m down the powerline clearcut, you can set up the sticks, up the power and take the shot.

Mouse - great post.

My standard ZG47 sights allow me to shoot 1.5" on a paper plate at 100yds. I can shoot running moose surprisingly well at 100yards too.

But it's a sobering realisation how few deer I shoot that are completely broadside and within 60m Certainly the moment I remove the scope I only see 100m plus deer!

I am about now in the frame of mind that I am willing to forgo success with scope to gain success with irons but it will take some perseverance.

I've sent you a PM.

Amir, I understand exactly what you are implying.

From my limited experience, nothing replaces shooting game especially the BIG FIVE plus teddies with iron sights in CQB situations.

COMING BACK TO THIS TOPIC THREAD For hunting big Game in Europe Wisent, Driven Boar, Brown Bear or Driven Moose with open sights is dooable.

After all that is the forum for European Big Game Hunting RIGHT ?

I also agree it needs lots of practice ! I have a 1.1- 4 x 24 DOT sight but have only flashed it for boar so far in 04 years.

Took it to Africa many times and every time I took it off at the last moment.

Either there is no time to check zero or doubt creps into my mind that it could have been shifted during transit..........

During PAMPERS moments there should be no doubt about your technique or equipment.

I tried to hunt boar in Croatia with open sights but a shot was never presented to me during the last AR boar hunt. SHAME

I would love the challenge to shoot driven MOOSE with open sights. I will do this later this year.

The closest I have come to was shooting a running ELAND with a set of crossers antlers with an open sighted double.

We were looking for hippo on land well after sunset on foot and this ELAND got spooked in tall grass.

My PH shouted I want that antler and I squeeezed ..........

Still remember that moment - better than any plains game with scope. As a result never shot a hippo to date.....

Picture to share



Sorry to drift off topic but I just wanted to share my passion for open sights with friends

UP CLOSE AND PERSONAL

Just in case anybody was going to comment that the shot was taken reactively .. I just learned a very good quote from my hunting friend in the U.S. - KR

It is easier to ask for forgiveneess than permission ..............

My PH sold the crosser to a German Collector / client, I paid him a large tip and he never charge me for shooting it.

Mouse - Received a call from Igor owner of Shooting Range GAJ confirming his new 300m and running bore range is now open. Will pop over there in the next few weeks for a go and he promise to thrown in some FREE boar shooting ! Meet up if you're close by

Just came across this current thread about hunting MOOSE with muzzle loader, peep sight in Alaska using quad bikes !

http://forums.accuratereloadin...8521043/m/2211011041

INTERESTING

Amir
I use a 30-30 under-lever for some of my stalking , light and short in length
seems perfect for qick shooting at short distances and very accurate
It came with a scope but took that off as I wanted open sights for my needs, primarily it was purchased just as a follow up gun
but found it was a lot more usefull being used as a stalking rifle aswell


I then put a fibre optic sight on the end with a little messing to fit it, worked well in low light and short distances


but again the sheer size of the dot although only 1.5mm in size , in low light it seemed to be like large glowing dot at around 100 yards and almost covered half the chest area of a Roe
so again I opted for another method as this was just to big for my liking
in the end I stuck with the Iron sights it came with
I know, but I had to try





this little bit adjusts the rear sight to compensate for bullet drop



This was basically the same sort of set-up I had on my old air rifle when looking down the sights



so for me it was quite easy to get back into the swing of things, As I used an open sighted air rifle for nearly 15 years up untill I caved in and went to tele's
I find I can take roe and fallow out to 150 yards in daylight quite comfortably but I tend to decrease the range as the light fades
Muntjac, I hav not had a chance yet over 50 metres, I would be happy to take shots out to 100 yards if they presented themselves thou, a fantastic bit of kit for woodland stalking and snap shooting
ATB

Irons will definitely make you slower, cut the hunting day shorter, and cause you to pass up or miss game with brush between you and them. I have shot a lot of deer, many of them being run by dogs. Almost all of them were in pretty thick woods. As i got older I started cranking up the power of the scope and the hits on running shots in timber increased. 6X is where i usually keep my scopes. If i can see any distance, I usually bump it up to 8X. Lower powers give you a larger field of view, but I don't give a damn about 20 meters on each side of a running big game animal. I am worried about getting the cross hairs in the proper place before pulling the trigger.

Anyone can learn to shoot running game in thick stuff with a scope. I learned by practicing on (with an unloaded air rifle) running squirrels in my yard when I was in my teens. Then i moved to shooting running squirrels with a .22. Another good way to practice is to follow flying birds (with an empty rifle). I also practiced on running squirrels with iron sites (empty gun) before trying it in the woods. I am slower and miss more with the irons, even though in my lifetime I have fired more total shots with iron sites than with scoped rifles.

I persoanlly know hundreds of hunters who hunt big game in the woods, many shooting at deer run by dogs, and 100% use scoped rifles. Hell, more and more people are even putting scopes on their shotguns for turkey and even squirrel hunting.

I do keep one big game rifle with iron sites. I use it when doing a lot of walking in a heavy rain or snow. I have shot deer with scoped rifles in rain and snow, but it can be a pain in the ass to be sure that the lenses are kept clean. If I am stationary I for sure use a scoped rifle. But walking, especially when checking traps or scouting or anything else requiring a lot of walking in brush, the iron sited rifle is usually what is brought along.

Nothing at all wrong with hunting with irons. Just understand they are going to be limiting you in every way.

Open sights are not for me I grew up with them on Air Rifles and 22's but you cannot get the same accuracy from them as you can from teles.

I would like to see any one who boasts about being able to consistantly and humanely take roe at 150m with open sights prove that on paper targets.

Amir,

You would be better of getting a Z6 1.7-10, 2-12 or even a 1-6 that way you will have the best of both worlds. If you stalk with it set on low power you will be ready for the close stuff and the longer stuff you will have time to crank up the mag if required.

quote:

Originally posted by DJM:


I would like to see any one who boasts about being able to consistantly and humanely take roe at 150m with open sights prove that on paper targets.

It always amazes me why people ask such questions as proof of ability for ..
If you want to see a person proove what they say surely the best way is to go see it in the same way they say it happens, not change the situation

I used to shoot with a fella who was a top class clay shot and ex world champion
but stick him on a nights duck shooting used to struggle like hell trying to shoot incoming teal..

And one of the best pheasant and pigeon shots I hav ever seen, who consistantly talks about taking birds at 60yards and I hav witnessed this on many, many occassions
Is just out of his depth on driven partridge

whats all that about???

Surely a target is just a target right..

But out of interest and nothing more
Does any one hav any pics they could post of what a deer looks like looking through a scope at 10 yards or less compared to open sights at the same distance

I good friend of mine has a great saying for when keyboard and bar marksmen claim that shooting a deer target is not the same as shoot a deer, they never miss a real deer, they cannot shoot targets etc etc etc, after helping out on 6-8 DSC1 courses a year for the 8 or so years I think I may have heard of the excuses by now.

However as my friend says the paper never lies!

Here are the pictures you requested standard Fallow sized "Iron Doe" at a range of 7m.

1-4 x 24 set to x1



1-4 x 24 set to x4



Open sights



5.5-25 set to x5.5



Now an "Iron Roe Buck" at 150m

Open sights



You could not see the target when aimed correctly, Note the front blade covers the entire animal


1-4 x 24 set at x1



1-4x24 set at x4



5.5-25 set at x14



One thing I have learned is that it is damn hard the line up the target the scope the camera all at the same time with only one pair of hands.

Thank you very much for posting the pics
I for one know how hard or difficult it will of been
I don't hav access to any life size targets at the moment or I would of done it for myself just to see
so much appreciated

I can honestly say I hav never missed a life sized paper deer target to my knowledge to date
but I hav missed a real one
but with out going off topic

just like in any discipline Iron sights are not for every one
The next clip was taken with my scope cam which I fitted to an iron sighted bolt action rifle..
shot taken off sticks
the target was half a breeze block just for effects
target ranged at 100m's approx with a good backstop hidden by the trees

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8FEDTxu6V4

the next pics were taken using my 30-30 underlever , just after I fitted the front sight back on it
range approx 60m free hand



For me I am quite happy with my confidence and ability in using Iron sights, but then I hav taken the time and effort to learn to shoot with them over the years

Richard
The 3030 interests me
What kind of speed is you gun throwing it out at please
I suspect you reload am I right
Which make of case is the most consistent in dimension ?
A bit off piste but perhaps you like to share that

Perhaps we should organize a plains game hunt in dark places but with open sights only in the future for those who enjoy this type of shooting

Richards I share your sentiments and opinion

Richard,

If you are going to the BDS range at Mikes why not bring the 30-30 along I will bring some deer targets and we can have a play.

Thank you Gentlemen for the in-depth advice. It is a pleasure to read the thoughts of such experienced folk.

I think my somewhat excitable dreams of open sights and snap shots will have to wait until I've had a chance to do some real practice with them.

In particular thanks to the guys who took the time to post the excellent photographs illustrating the points so well.

Regards,

Amir

Ghubert are you a diplomat in real life ?

Richard,

Are you going to the BDS Range Evening on Thursday and bringing the 30-30, I have the targets ready and I will even bring my chono as I have yet to see a deer legal 30-30

Morning David
sorry for not replying sooner

I am still hoping to get to Mikes but will all depend on work and wether my Licence comes back as promised today as I sent it in for a variation
But I was bringing the 30-06 & .375 HH, as I hav loaded up some new fodder and need test them