I have only hunted in Scotland and Turkey (not really Europe), but I must admit that I really love the enthusiasm you chaps show for the sport. We Americans tend to think that we have the market cornered on big game hunting in the world, and we do have some built-in advantages, but when it comes to outdoor skills, most Americans can't hold a candle to you guys.

One of he things I like most is your commitment to quality when it comes to equipment, firearms and optics. Whereas I own dozens of rifles and shotguns, at any one time, several of these firearms either won't feed, shoot accurately, or won't function for some other reason. That's because we tend to buy cheap junk that works most of the time. When it quits, we buy another one. In Europe, you guys spend more on one rifle and scope than we do on five, but you know that your's will work when the chips are down.

I guess our attitude comes from the fact that we take hunting and firearms ownership for granted. Most of our hunters grew up hunting and never received any formal instruction on hunting, hunting ethics, and firearms safety. Until recently, in most states all you had to do to get a hunting license is turn 16 and go buy one. Need a gun? Run down to the local WalMart and buy one. I'm not complaining, mind you, I like it that way, but it makes us not appreciate the sport in the same way you do.

Most of you guys have had to pass rather rigorous ethics and safety courses as a pre-requisite to getting a license, and then, in many countries, you are severely restricted on how many and what kind of firearms you can own. Then there is the sense of tradition and responsibility that is enforced by the entire hunting community. I think this makes you appreciate the sport much more than us.

Sorry for the long post. Just wanted to let you know that at least one (and there are many more like me) American appreciates you European hunters. I can't hardly wait until I can come back and hunt with y'all again.

thanks for the kind words, you and yours are welcome any time in my neck of the woods.

peter

GAHUNTER,

Spending time on both American and British/European hunting/stalking sites. Reading books, magazines and many articles on the subject for the last 6 years, and counting a very knowledgeable and experienced British stalker as my best friend I have discovered that British-European stalker/hunters are "Gentlemen in a League of their Own".

Lynn D

Let me echo the comments of my Canadian and American colleagues in recognizing the sophistication and knowledge that European hunters bring to our sport. I have hunted in both Hungary and Scotland and in both cases was very impressed by the reverence and respect I witnessed being accorded to the game and the hunt.

Thanks for the kind words.
And while on the topic of gun ownership in Europe: would all of you please stop posting things like "what if you could only own 10 guns?"
Please? That can really hurt when you are only allowed to have 2 or 3!

GAHUNTER,

A very astute post, IMO. Thanks for taking the time to post your considerations.

As an American residing abroad, I think I can also speak for the overwhelming majority of my American (and other Nationalities) Hunting friends & aquaintances who are of similar ilk. We have been fortunate to live and experience different, unique hunting situations, traditions & cultures.

Americans certainly DO NOT corner the "Daniel Boone or Davy Crockett" market by any stretch of anyone's imagination; some much, much, more; some sigificantly less; it's a product of our American Hunting Tradition. I don't know that I'd want to test my personal Skills against an American Bow Hunter who gets within spitting distance of many Trophy Whitetail Buck every year, either.

There are though, Globally, countless regions, countries and areas with their own set of Woodsman's Skill's. We have our own Hunting Tradition and are rich in many diverse Hunting opportunities (including some unique types of hunting; Bow Hunting, Black Powder & Varmint Shooting & Hunting as examples) & Firearms ownership - as you've mentioned.

Spend some time though; on the Hill in Scotland with a Ghillie, the German Forest with a German Forester, in Africa, New Zealand or Australia with your PH or Guide (or anywhere else for that matter - don't want to exclude anyone!) and enjoy what's happening.

When traveling & hunting abroad; take the best of what's observed, learned & expereinced and discard the "Does Not Apply"; ultimately becoming a more enlightened Nimrod. It may not be the way we do it in "Wherever, USA" but doesn't mean we can't learn alot from others.

The one thing that most seperates American and European hunters (and African hunters, for that matter) is how nonchalant we Americans are about firearm ownership. I don't think we begin to appreciate how good we have it in that regard in comparison with most of the hunting world.

I think the gun-ownership restrictions and hoops that must be jumped through in order to purchase a firearm in other countries make you guys appreciate the sport much more than we do.

Don't get me wrong; I'm not lobbying for tougher gun laws here! I like it just the way it is.

In that regard, I am presently researching a fallow deer hunt in Great Britain or Republic of Ireland. Just how hard is it to bring my own firearm into these countries to hunt? I know that I need to hire a courier in Britain, but what about Ireland? Last time I used the "estate rifle" and it worked out fine.

It is not at all hard to import your personal rifle into Britain or Ireland for a weeks hunting. Your host/outfitter will be able to sort out the paperwork with little difficulty, just allow 6-8 weeks for this.

The estate rifle thing can work very well in Britain, maybe less so in Ireland.

Taking a rifle into England is much simplier than RSA. I am glad I don't have to jump all the hoops for gun ownership like Europeans and Brits, of course that stems from that little battle a couple of hundered years ago. All this points to what I have said before I am so thankful to live in and be a citizen of the greatest country in the world - BAR NONE! AS THE MAN said "From my Cold Dead Hands"!

GA,

Sorry if I misled you. You don't need a courrier in the UK, it just happens that the guide I suggested was also a courrier.

With some small deatils, a sponsor and a £20 fee or so you can get a temporary import permit that is valid for a year, (in case you decide to come back again!!)

Ireland is indeed much more difficult to get the permits for but I gather the minor hassel is worth it for some if the best wild deer stalking about. In some areas Fallow and Sika are in huge numbers.

Rgds,
Kiri

GA, I've never hunted off-shore but have been to Europe many times... I appreciate your post and share your thought's which is why I lurk in the European forum on a regular basis!

Best Wishes to all our European friends!

Brad A.

I think that the key difference between US deer hunting and Europe is that we call the sport Deer Stalking and we do not favour either long range shots or shots at moving game. We try to get as close as possible before taking the shot.

The other difference in the UK is that the vast majority of stalking takes place on private land and with limited access we don't have to wear those rather fetching orange suits to avoid getting shot.

I envy you Amercians for some of your public access and variety of game but we don't do so bad in the UK with much higher deer densities in a lot of cases.

I think this photo I took of by buddy just moments after he shoot a nice Reed Stag says more then 1000 words about European hunting traditions and culture !

Very nice thread, thanks a lot to all of you for nice words and interesting observations.

I learned the trade here but had the opportunity to live and hunt in N. America. I do like both worlds and am proud to have excellent hunters as friends both here and there.

Although I haven't hunted anywhere in Europe yet, it's plain to see the tradition and respect for the animal that is very admirable. I don't think tradition is completely absent here in the states, but with technology and the rush to cram what we can into a weekend I just think we've forgotten it little by little with each generation. The great picture posted above of blowing the hunter's horn over the kill use to be practiced (and still may be) in the deep south, I'm sure brought over by our European ancestors. Read, if you can wade through the thickness of it, compared to today's quick-read novels and stories, Faulkner's "The Old People". They blow the horn in that story. All this to say keep up the good work in Europe, don't let your great traditions die and please pass them along to your children.

humble hunter,

what I try to teach my children not only in regatrd of hunting is to both be open minded for change and traditions as well as heritage.

Can't tell so far if it will really work out as planned, it is for sure a lot of fun, especially the hunting and fishing part.

I live in Norway, and have hunted twice in the US. My impression is that the joy of nature and passion for the hunt is the same. However, the cherished Stalk would be next to impossible in the public lands where I hunted, due to heavy foliage/no forestation. Other aspects of hunter attitudes also differes, seems to me that many more Americans like long range shooting, and call it hunting... I talked to a guy in Colorado while elk hunting there, who claimed to have shot an elk at 850 yards. That would be illegal here, considered cruelty to anmals due to the risks involved. In Norway, we have to practise at least 30 shots over two days, and then pass a shooting test with each gun you intend to use while hunting. This insures that the guns are sighted correctly, and that the shooters are famililar with the gun. It does not make anyone a sharpshooter.

norwegian,

It happens, but we're not proud of it, and most of us don't encourage it or socialize with those who do. On the other hand, even in these days of rangefinders, many of the tales of long-distance shots are based upon estimates - that is, exaggerated. (That's true of estimated weights, also - we own the carcass, so scales are a little harder to come by than if there's a landowner involved.)

I support GAHUNTER's general point. In the US it's easy to hunt - I wonder how many of us would do it if we had to travel the same gauntlet as our Euro friends do. I admire your skills and dedication.

Blowing horns after a kill?
Are you serious, nobody will hear it anywise in our neck of the woods
We use UHF two radios and now-a-days cell phones or satellite phones
(Where I hunt in the Alps cell phones have 100% signal. There must be an antenna on every peak).
Seriously, I was in England a few years ago and I could not believe the house I stayed at was over six hundred years old (even 230 years ago my home city was virgin forest).
No offence to the Europeans but we are just a little different down here.

zzWop, (small hijack of thread):

What is the hunting situation down-under, i.e. types of game, cost, etc., for visitors?

Goran
The only "game" you can hunt is deer and there is plenty of it (license is easy to get too). You can shoot all types of vermin anytime of the year ie rabbits, hares, foxes, goats, pigs, water buffalo, wild horses, donkeys, camels etc (crocs are protected).
Hunts can very from $100 to over $1000 a day depending what you are hunting where and with whom.
You may bring any of the firearms you have in your list except the Browning BAR II (no semi autos)
So put on a pair of khaki shorts and come over.

quote:

Originally posted by Lynn D:
... I have discovered that British-European stalker/hunters are "Gentlemen in a League of their Own".

Lynn D

Do you mean like this League of Gentlemen?

GAHunter, I disagree with your shamlessly butt kissing post While I appreciate hunting the world over, to include tradition, I cannot agree that American hunters tolerate junk equipment, or that everyone has a rifle or two that don't work right. I don't own a single one that doesn't work properly in all regards. Nor are they all the cheapest ones I could find. The thing that differs is everyone here has hunting within their grasp, with affordable firearms, ammo and equipment for sale to be used on public lands that total more than the area of many European countries. That most hunters have no formal education is also false, every state has now and has for a couple decades formal education required. Informal education, the passing of tradition from father to son for example is how tradition is formed, not by formal education.

There is much to admire in the hunting our European comrades do. There is no reason to not be proud to be an American hunter.

Guillermo,

I lived in Spain for a few years, and I think you are mistaken.

Most Spanish hunters are bird and rabbit hunters, the big game is on fincas but most of these are 3000 hectares or larger.

The big game hunting in Spain is expensive, and a lot of the hunters in driven hunts are well to do types. But don't discount the high bag numbers with small pastures.

The Spanish hunt in the traditional Monteria or Spanish driven hunt. This hunt is usually only done on a finca once a year and damn near all the quota for that finca will be taken then.

There will be hundreds of beaters and dogs to ensure that the quota is taken care of Spanish hunting that is stalking or high seat stuff the same as the rest of Europe.

The Spanish are not the only driven hunters in Europe either.

I don't know where you got your information but I would like to see it.

regards,

D99.

I am not in the hunting business, the outfitter and gunshop in my links are personal friends of mine.

I am in the Military, I have never been in the hunting business.

I have never seen a high fence anyplace I have hunted in Spain. They are not the norm.

I have not had the pleasure of hunting in Spain, and the pictures that Guillermo posts may not be the norm except for the idle rich.
I have friends who have hunted Spain, and it can provide a classic good hunt after their truly free ranging mountain species.

But scenes like this cause hunters to gain such a tarnished image. This is not hunting. This is sport shooting and an example of butchery. I have hunted on game ranches in South Africa and with the size of most of those ranches the game is truly free ranging and hunting skills are required. Some are smaller and the hunt quality becomes less, but never to the barbaric scale depicted in these photos.

I have more pleasure in the small free ranging red stag I took in Australia than I would have had in shooting a farm bred and raised antler rich animal.

Planemech,

Funny that I should read your post just after getting off the phone with Mossberg, who is trying to make one of my rifles go "BOOM" when the trigger is pulled. So far we've got it to go boom about 80 percent of the time. The rest of the time, you get a deafening "Click." Seems this rifle suffers from a double whammy; first, it suffers from excessive headspace; and, two, it has a weak firing pin spring. The rifle is a pretty little SSi (single shot) in 30-06. I killed a nice 11-point buck with it last year, but had to wait for the deer to present a second shot after the first round misfired.

I also have an A-bolt, also in '06, that shoots minute-of-barn. I am next going to try a new stock for it.

I also have a Ruger Dangerous Game Rifle that won't feed, which is a fairly necessary function when a Cape Buffalo zeros in on you.

I never put down American hunters, other than to say we are spoiled by the easy access we have to the game, land, and to firearms. Many Europeans must endure months or years of bureaucratic red tape before being granted the privledge to hunt or own a firearm. There is little or no public hunting land in most of Europe so finding a place to hunt is a time consuming, and expensive, proposition. All this tends to make European hunters very appreciative of the sport, and I dare say, much more "invested" in it than we are.

Yes, most of my American brethern are very good, ethical hunters who appreciate all that God has seen fit to bless us with in this great nation. But this post was about Europeans and how much I admire their commitment to the sport.

If that's kissing their asses, then so be it.

Guillermo. Scary photos. I have heard stories about Sakos failing but not Blaser. I do not own either one, but hunted a few times in Australia with a borrowed Blaser in 7mm Mag. I was impressed by the rifle. Here is why. It was disassmbled in the carrying case. We put it together and mounted the scope. I wanted to sight it in before the hunt and my pal said not necessary. But we did and it was dead on. We took that rifle apart and put it together several times, and each time its zero was perfect. I believe it has to do with the steel to steel construction. I wonder what caused that failure.

Guillermo,

I think you missed my point. I know the Mossberg is a POS rifle, as, IMHO, are most out-of-the-box Remington 700s, Browning A-Bolts, and push-feed Winchesters. But I enjoy the challange of making them into decent hunting rifles. (Except for the A-bolt, which is beyond help if it does not work well out-of-the-box)

Most Europeans don't have the luxury of being able to buy one of these El Cheapos on the off-chance that you might get a good one. In some countries, gun ownership is so restricted that there is no way you are going to take that kind of risk, so you spend the money to buy a rifle that has a reputation for quality, reliability and accuracy.

Here, on the other hand, I kind of make it a hobby to buy and hunt with cheap rifles. I own dozens. If I can't get one to work the way I want it to, then I'll sell it and buy something else. BTW, I'm partial to Ruger M-77, Mark IIs, as I have found them to be the easiest to tune up and they usually come with a pretty good piece of wood in the stock.

Ladies and Gentlemen of the European forum,

Not withstanding my little joke above, I too find most European hunters and huntresses that I have met to be a cultured and respectable lot of folks.

Sometimes I think the old traditions add a bit of spice to the hunt.

One day I hope again to share a hunt in Europe.

Hmm,

Let me see I have hunted; Turkey, Spain, Germany, Alaska, Wyoming, Montana, New Mexico, Arizona, and Namibia.

I am not a rich person, in all the cases except Namibia I have hunted there because I live there.

I think it is dangerous to lump all of the Spanish hunters in together. Driven hunts happen all over Europe and on many driven hunts the bags are similar to the ones in your photos from Spain.

I have never personally been on a driven hunt. I hunted a place for wild boar that was used for driven partridge and red stag, and it had no high fences nor did any other finca I saw in the Ronda mountains Sierras or near Sevilla.

I am sure the exhist Spain is a big place by European standards.

You have plenty of high fence fincas in Argentina! No one here is beating down your door screaming for a Revolution!

Guillermo,

I think you are taking some limited ammount of second hand information and tarring a whole country(s) (Spain and England) with the same brush. Yes some culling takes place on deer parks, in fact my freinds are out today and will shoot probably over 50-70 deer. I agree this is not hunting per se.

However I have no doubt that driven shooting in Spain is not necessarily what you cliam it to be. Hopefully by kind invitation I will get the opportunity next year to try it and find out for myself to make an informed decision.

I have hunted in Argentina (amongst a number of other countries) and if I was honest I found the experience not at all enjoyable. The Blackbuck were herded towards us and I was encouraged to shoot into the thick of the herd at any animal regardless of backstop and suitability, and the guide tried to get me to shoot an Axis from the car. In both cases I flatly regused and did things my way with a walk and stalk approach. He also indicated me the wrong buck to shoot when we were looking for a beast that was wounded, and refused to go look for the wounded animal suddenly not being able to speak English apart from to say that he wouldn't charge me the other Fee... When he saw what I wanted and that I was happy to not shoot he couldn't understand my motivation for going hunting...

I have also Shot your Perdiz over pointers, and while it was enjoyable, (sort of), I really didn't find them that sporting a bird. A driven pheasant in the traditional english way is a far superior quarry in my book, and I know which I would choose if I had to.

Now on the other hand I saw some good duck shooting and regardless of the fact that I came upon an unscrupulous guide I would still go back to your country and hunt in the future. I refuse to accept that one estate or guide is representative of a whole population nor do I think any one place is the best hunting place in the world.

Your comments of releasing pheasants from "jail", and stopping for the rain show how little you know of what you speak.

Rgds,
FB

guillermo.

your posts are a bit off the target, to say the least borderlining "all fair skinned people in argentina decents from run away nazis."

off course you can find lousy places in spain as you can everywhere else, dont disregard a nation on some second hand info that i think you misunderstood.

regarding pheasant: with respect you dont know what you are talking about, so get the facts right before you speak.

regarding the guns: in every production line there will be a lemon or a maniac reloader, you cant disregard the build quality is better on most euro guns, but they cost more so it should be like that.

Regarding those "Monterias" and the two follow question;
Why today exist some many wild animal breeders (Red stags, Mouflon, Wildboards, African plain games etc....) only with conservancy pourposse???

no actually there is a lot of game farms that is farming the animals, shooting the animals before they go to the butcher, this is a high end meat buisness, that does very well here in europe. shooting them on the land is a quality thing to avoid the stress buildup in the meat.

think before you speak, if you dont have enough info ask for it. so you can make an informed post next time.

regards peter

dont cry for me argentina.......

quote:

Originally posted by Guillermo Amestoy:
With all my respect, no offences intended, your are in the hunting bussines, your opinion is not valid for me.

Guillermo,

when driving we usually hunt areas between 500 and 100 hectars, we also do use dogs and drivers and have been doing this since decades. If organized well, I do not see any reason why a montería should not be fair chase, even when within fenced 3000 has. After all, many Namibian or S. African game farms are fenced, as well, right?

I hunted in Spain and Uruguay and know also Argentina pretty well. I also have hunted with Spanish friends in other places and do like very much their attitude and style. They always like a challenge, go to difficult places, are quite open-minded towards other mentalities, have a certain and very pleasant self-irony and, I have to say, usually shoot very well.

Quoting yourself, "With all my respect, no offences intended," in your posts I rather seem to perceive a certain envy, arrogance, selfcenteredness and selfrighteousness, probably as typical for the average "Porteño" as sloppy hunting is typical for the average Spanish hunter.

And no, I am not in the hunting business.

By the way, you really sure there is no canned, behind-the-fence red stad hunting or out-of-the-cage puma hunting in Argentina?

You really 100% positive about that?

GAHUNTER: "I really love an appreciate you European hunters"

It is sad to see so honest an expression of general admiration come to this.

Nick,

I'm kinda ingnoring the Spanish hunting methods threads, as I don't have a dog in that fight.

But I got a little defensive when I was accused of putting down American hunters, which was never my intention.

Amigo,

Come on! I think you have too much tiempo del Sol, via de asado trebajo.

I would be willing to bet that Ricardo Medem and Tony Sanchez-Arino both shot deer on monterias.

I would bet all the Spanish pessetas that I have in my wallet on that.