Folks.

I guess that this is my concern also - once there is a requirement for mandatory training, it seems that 'costs' just keep on rising! :0(

Not sure whether you can think of two incidents in years and years as a 'trend' - feel that 'coincidence' is possibly more appropriate. Nethertheless, it is a good point that numbers of night shooters have increased.

I am certainly not against training - quite the opposite - but very unsure as to how it can be implemented without becoming a cash cow for a greedy few. If you feel that this might not be the case, then do take a look at course costs for mandatory training in industry!

Rgds Ian

Not a big fan of mandatory training for the masses. Not least for the reasons cited by Pete. Who would train us? Yet another self styled expert who wants to make a fast buck I souldn't wonder.

What it boils down to is basic safety and common sense.

I agree that this sounds like a ND, rather than a badly called deliberate shot.

Tricky one.

Ian, "A driving licence doesn't prevent accidents" indeed not but imagine the situation if no one needed to take the driving test. There's the highway code your advised to follow these guidelines!?
Shooting after dark is proportionally a helluva lot more accident prone than daylight shooting, add the use of vehicles and a couple of mates to egg the shooter on and it equates to an accident waiting to happen.
ps. I know we're not poles apart, even if you are hunting capercaillie in Norway or stalking stags on the west cost of Scotland!

Transpond - true enough. Unfortunately the Red thing fell thru at the last moment - still, Norway in three weeks n counting! :0)

Ian

Trans-pond,



So who is going to say your competent or not? The Police ?



They have about the worst record of firearms safety (night or day)and there is good reason why most are only trusted to carry a "blunt stick" rather than a firearm!



Their so called "firearms officers" have a history of ND's, loosing firearms, shooting the wrong people and generally not being able to hit a barn door from the inside!



Add to that an element dishonesty ie I know of one Civilian Firearms Officer *jailed* for stealing firearms during the hand in post Dunblane and another Sgt who stole a shooters scope off a rifle after it was "siezed" and in Police custody...Sorry, as a shooter, I have very little respect for the Police.



Back to the issue here, apparently, it was the boys stepfather who shot him and reading between the lines I suspect it was some sort of ND rather than mistaken identity.



Regards,



Pete

Pete

a pity you have such a low opinion of the Police, you must have had some bad experiences. I know of certain "occurances" happening and those concerned have been removed from their post, never to return to armed service, ever.

If indeed there was a ND, then what more can be said, it should never have happened.

Is it not the case that safe weapons handling dictates that one never points a firearm, loaded or not at anything you do not intend to shoot?

I realise that there will be those who resist he idea of mandatory training due to their own "experience" as well as the concern that commercial companies may get involved and we would end up paying alot of money from our pockets.

But if there was a training scheme run in conjunction with the application / renewal process that HAD to be passed, then this would go a long way to avoid unecessary accidents.

Perhaps the NRA, BASC, BDS and Police should create a common ground training course to be provided free with any renewal / application??

Or am I being slightly niaive in the thought that our sporting societies would consult one another?

Pete



How very true. I did the Advanced Stalkers Course 7 or 8 years ago and there was a full time police marksman from Avon and Somerset who had to cheat to pass the shooting by getting his mate in the butts to lie about his score.



What with that and the fact that they have not done anything about the diddycoys who knocked off my barn (including cider press ) last month - in spite of me providing the Reg No of their Recce Party's vehicle, I have an all time dim view of the boys in blue at the moment.

Andy,

With regards the Police, lets see:

My local village bobby shoots pheasants in a syndicate& also he does pest control on the shoot with a .22LR rifle. Sympathetic towards other shooters? Not a chance...he thinks thats as a stalker, I should *borrow* an estate rifle when I go stalking. Another time he advised me that if I was doing a like for like swap of a rifle, I had no need of a variation! Same bobby has suggested I should keep a log of all the ammo I reload for his inspection on my next renewal.

Another instance which happened a few years back after I moved house. A policeman turns up to inspect my security, which is fair enough. He knows the cabinet should be "raw bolted to the wall" and proceeds to look on the *outside* of the wall for the heads of the bolt! I had to explain to him what a raw bolt was!

During a renweal for my FAC and shotgun, two bobbies turned up to do the shotgun certifcate checks. They nearly had a siezure when I opened my cabinet and there were rifles in there. HQ had not told them I held an FAC as well. As I could not produce my FAC (it was in for renewal!) and a photocopy was not deemed acceptable, they wanted to take my rifles "untill they sorted things out"...

During another renewal, the first words the Policeman said as he entred the house was to the effect that "Personally, he thought no civilians should have guns!" I think he was shocked when I asked him to leave and told him I would be complaining about his attitude.

I have a friend who is an ex marine and now works for a local council to do with animal welfare. He is also a stalker. A cow got loose from a local market and was giving everybody the run around. The local Police tried to shoot it as they considered it dangerous to road traffic 9fair enough) but took about a dozen shots from a 9mm H&K carbine to do the job. The Armed Response team that attended also had a shotgun with slugs in the vehicle but decide the 9mm was better for the job! My mate & an RSPCA inspector tried to stop them as a qualified slaughterman was on his way, but they went a head any way. The RSPCA Inspector actually pressed the Council to prosecute the police officers involved but it was all brushed under the table.

A couple of years ago another friend was badly injured when his rifle "exploded" as he took a shot at a deer. We rushed him to the local village and from there to hospital via ambulance. As a firearm was invloved, I had to give a statement to the local Police.

The WPC concerned introduced herself and explained she was taking the statement as she had been "firearms trained". Now she was really friendly and I could not fault her attitude. As I gave my statement, she stopped me and asked my what I meant by "6.5x55"...later as we were discussing possible causes, and she was looking at the remains of the rifle, she asked if it could have been caused by a "stoppage or jam"...after a little more discussion, I realised she was relating things to her training on semi auto pistols and did not know the difference between a semi auto and a bolt action! Now think about that!


With regards training; I am not against training at all, in fact I have Level 1 and 2 plus the old Advanced Stalker Certificate as well as various other bits of paper.

What I am against is Manaditory training. Many Police Forces are pressuring new stalkers into doing the Level 1 before granting them an FAC when they have no legal basis to do that. BASC are not making too much of a song and dance as they get more customers. It won't be long before the Police start pushing for Level 2 as well. In fact I know of one guy who was told he could only have an "open" ticket if he did his Level 2.

I was talking to one "Accredited Witness" at the CLA and he took great delight in telling me about the various things he "failed" people for when assessing them for the Level 2. The guy was obviously on some sort of "power trip" and there was no question of him helping or imparting knowledge he simply wanted to trip folks up....

Sorry to rant but I hate seeing new comers to our sport taken advantage of, or ripped off such as with Accredited Witnesses charging �100 per stalk as i know one person does.

I don't have any stalking locally but if I did, I would be happy to try and help somebody who was starting out just as I was helped and coached when I first started. Today, the deer world seems to be obsessed with "cash" with everybody trying to make a living out it.

Off my soap box now and time for bed!

Regards,

Pete

Back home in norway we have a formal traing for all new hunters, before you can hunt and buy a gun you need to take a 18 hour course (If I remeber right, I did it when I was 14 so it�s starting to be some time ago)

The test includes, firearms handling, safety, hunting regulation etc. And also there is a range day, where everyone shoot a shotgun atleast and also see what effect a shotgun might have.

After you pass the test you can buy a gun, and also shotgun ammo.

I like this system.

Johan

Andy,
is there some new info about the incident? some new detail that explain why it happened?