Does anyone know of the complete list of acceptable hunting/pest/ vermin calibres in the UK?
What they are?
What you can use them on?

I tried asking my local Firearms office what was allowed, all they said was .22 for rabbits, .223 for foxes and .308 for deer??

I asked about different ones .243 etc and all I got was "Ohhh no, thats not even on the chart??"

And when I asked why a .44 magnum wasn't allowed for pest/vermin control?, the reply was, "If you ask that again we will revoke you license!!"

Help.....anyone???

I cannot find the link to the ACPO Firearms guidelines, but I was for some time a FLO, from memory, the following calibre list applies:

Small vermin - Rabbits

.22RF, .17RF

Large Vermin - Fox

.17 Rem

I should think the new 20cals fit here (.204 Ruger, .20 Tactical, .20 Practical, .20PPC etc)

.222

.223

.22-250

.220 Swift

and any of the other.224 wildcat derivatives.

Deer in the UK

.240 cal / 1700ft lbs minimum

(6mm BR / PPC, 243, 6mmRM, 250 Roberts, 25-06, .270, 6.5x55, 30 cals, etc , etc, etc.

The lists are not definitive.


The advice you got from your Constabulary was incorrect - seek advice with fellow shooters and pick a calibre that they use for the quarry you wish to hunt.

You are not limited to .223 and .308 by any means.

Try this link Home office guide and see if it helps. I thinks Section 13 will be of most interest to you.

Hope it helps

John

Dan,

I'm just up the road from you in Bromley and had a chat with my Civvy FLO a few months back.

He tried to tell me that they were pushing people away from the .22lr for rabbits and foxes in favour of the .17HMR bbecause it was a safer gun and the .22 travveled for a mile!!!

He drew no distinction between the 22LR the 223 &222 as they were all .22 calibres?!?!?!?!?

We then got onto the merrits of various bigger calibres and I decided to give up talking. He just kept quoting the home office guidelines to me...

The reality is though that getting a calibre through isn't the big problem. It's getting the allowance for enough Ammo if you wish to take up reloading and geting the variety of calibres accepted without restricting the quarry you can use each for. you can shoot munties with a 375 cos they are deer but you can't shoot a fox.... etc.

If I was you I'd just put in for whtever you want and let them try and refuse you. If they do you are within your rights to appeal or contest the decision. Most of the time you get it anyway regardless on what the copper says.

Rgds,

JAYB, Thanks for that, I've nearly gone blind staring at my PC's screen looking for answers.

Section 13 is indeed very useful, I wish I'd known all this before sending off my FAC for a veriation last week. Looks like a 6mm BR will be on the cards then and may be 45/70.

Fallowbuck, those FLO's are a very fustracting breed aren't they, mine has been as good as gold in the past, given me everything I've asked for, think he must have a new boss now because something has got him really jumpy.

Where do normally shoot/stalk then?

Bisley for practise I would have thought?

Dan

quote:

Originally posted by Andy Mass:
I cannot find the link to the ACPO Firearms guidelines, but I was for some time a FLO, from memory, the following calibre list applies:

Small vermin - Rabbits

.22RF, .17RF

Large Vermin - Fox

.17 Rem

I should think the new 20cals fit here (.204 Ruger, .20 Tactical, .20 Practical, .20PPC etc)

.222

.223

.22-250

.220 Swift

and any of the other.224 wildcat derivatives.

Deer in the UK

.240 cal / 1700ft lbs minimum

(6mm BR / PPC, 243, 6mmRM, 250 Roberts, 25-06, .270, 6.5x55, 30 cals, etc , etc, etc.

The lists are not definitive.


The advice you got from your Constabulary was incorrect - seek advice with fellow shooters and pick a calibre that they use for the quarry you wish to hunt.

You are not limited to .223 and .308 by any means.

Andy,

Do you know what is applicable in relation to the acceptable calibres in a long barreled pistols for stalking and pest control

Being right-handed and left eye dominant is a real pain.

Dan

Dan

I never came across such an enquiry while I was doing FEO work. I know other forces have allowed Pistols for dispatch of RTA deer etc. BUT, as far as I am aware, none of the pistol calibres generate the required 1700 ft lbs necessary to comply with the Deer Act, so for stalking anyway, you may have to rethink.

Personally, I would rather dispatch a deer with a second rifle shot, if it is required (fortunatly, I have yet to do this) I don't think youre force would entertain a long barrelled pistol for stalking - you could try, but I have my doubts.

I have considered getting a 30-30 cal to deal with RTA Deer and for deciduos stalking it is "just" enough gun to do a clean humane job.
1873 Winchester Lever action and open sights

quote:

Originally posted by Andy Mass:
Dan

I never came across such an enquiry while I was doing FEO work. I know other forces have allowed Pistols for dispatch of RTA deer etc. BUT, as far as I am aware, none of the pistol calibres generate the required 1700 ft lbs necessary to comply with the Deer Act, so for stalking anyway, you may have to rethink.

Personally, I would rather dispatch a deer with a second rifle shot, if it is required (fortunatly, I have yet to do this) I don't think youre force would entertain a long barrelled pistol for stalking - you could try, but I have my doubts.

I have considered getting a 30-30 cal to deal with RTA Deer and for deciduos stalking it is "just" enough gun to do a clean humane job.
1873 Winchester Lever action and open sights

Sorry Andy, I gave you the wrong end of the stick, I'm looking for advise on rifle calibre rounds in single shot pistols, 6mm BR, .308 etc
Something that will have enough bang for the buck, as it were, for stalking, not finishing off.

It all seems daft to me, as my .44 mag pistol will develop over 1700ftlbs anyway.

Dan

Dan,
my first concern would be the attitude of the FLO, to threaten you with revocation of your certificate would have had me on the phone to the Chief Constable.
I would suggest in future that any dealings with these people is done in writing,and you ask for, any reason for refusal pertains to a home office guidelines.. which at the end of the day is open to different interpretations by different forces.
As for a 44mag for deerstalking, not a cat in hells chance! It might have 1700ftlbs but will certainly not have 2450fps required by law.
Its not enough gun, I doubt if it has the accuracy required!

regards

griff

Dear Dan

have a look atthis link its very user-friendly:

http://www.deerstalker.com/home_office_guidance.htm

As an example of firearms confusion they put my 375H+H down for fox after saying the 7mm was too powerful.

In addition I can,t shoot wild boar or ferel goat unless I can prove I have them on my land??
So the next time I see a feral goat in Scotlant I will have to video/collect sheep shit and send it to the FLO as proof????

Regards

Mark

Griff
"44 mag not enough gun"
Ask all the (dead) buff, moose, elk, griz/brown bear etc, i think you may be a little bit incorrect with that statement!!!

regards

I`m new to this forum so just getting use to it.
I was under the impression that you had to load the 6ppc HOT to get it deer legal, if you look at the books i can only find 1 that uses IMO an adequate bullet ( in England and on fallow, sika and Reds) and then it only beats it by little and the books always seem to come up faster than real life, lets get realistic about this, these guidelines are so far off as to be a joke .44 mag not deer legal!!!!!!! i could go on but..............

regards

bumscratcher,
it might have of killed hundreds if not thousands of elk bear etc, but then so has a 22lr.I stand by my statement ITS NOT ENOUGH GUN, the average range in the U.K at which deer are shot is 125yds, we are regulaly shooting deer out to 350yds. Not one for being arsit, we will give the 44mag the benefit of the doubt and go for 200yd ballistic data...

135" of drop
330 ftlbs
thats the same energy as a 22mag at the muzzle, or the same energy a 243 has at a thousand yds

need I say anymore!!!

regards
griff

Ok, just to re-cap.... I do have a.44 mag that I believe is powerful and accurate enough to cleanly take small deer and foxes, but I do know that the powers-that-be disagree with me on this issue.

I do understand the legalities behind it I just don't agree with them. As for shots over 100 yards... I wouldn't take them, to me it just doesn't seem sporting, I spearfish with a spear not a spear-gun, if it's sport your after I believe you have to get up-close and personal, otherwise you might as well go in with a howitzer.

And, it is sport only that I'm talking about, if it pest/vermin/population control, then it needs to be done by what ever means available, even if its at 300yds etc...

What I'm trying to find out about is, the rules & regs surrounding single shot pistols in rifle cartridge calibres, (not pistol calibres)
Like an HS Presision or a Blaser HHS, basically a rifle action in a pistol stock? Something that will give the required ftlbs and fps.

Griff
" give it the benefit of doubt "
i`m sorry but you are totally wrong and you are also moving the goal post`s! i think you will find the average range to be 78yrds (shooting times) there is also no mention of what type of shooting that it is going to be used for. The .44mag is not a long range chambering granted but an experienced stalker will choose his equipment according to the ground and quary he is after, i can think of few better woods caliber, but its the wrong choice if your out on the hill.
FWIW i`m speaking from my own experiance of shooting "long tails" rone cows in the Australian outback when i worked on a sheep and cattle station in the early 90`s. When cattle are born the last joint of the tail is removed so they can be identified, any cattle with a full tail is called a long tail and they are shot on sight as they have a tendancy to brake the herd up. I dont remember how many i shot 20-30, 1 camal, 3 water buffalo,1 wild horse (broken leg) and again dont know how many donkeys all shot with a 44mag, these are ALL bigger MUCH bigger and i usually got total penetration. I only make comments on things that i have personal experiences with and the .44mag i do. You sir are talking nonsense.

On a side note their are few things that this government do that i agree with but when we had the BSE crissis defra sent out memos to slaughter houses etc to find out what the best and most humane way of culling hill animals was and the overwelming response to rifle caliber choice was...............44mag.
The rifles that the "death squads " used were Marlin lever action, with open sights and 20" barrels.
If you have the courage of your convictions post a topic on the handgun forum ".44mag not enough gun for deer" but please have a crash hat close by!

regards B

From this thread I would say the beaurcrats in the UK are as stupid and uninformed as those in the states. They are not the least bit aware of the bable they spew I have used 243 on every thing from water deer to Red Stag and all fell on the shot, or walked a few yards at most.

quote:

Originally posted by Die Ou Jagter:
From this thread I would say the beaurcrats in the UK are as stupid and uninformed as those in the states. They are not the least bit aware of the bable they spew I have used 243 on every thing from water deer to Red Stag and all fell on the shot, or walked a few yards at most.

Yes.... yes they are that stupid and uninformed.

I have since found out that .243 is allowed I was just mis-advised.

.44 mag 310gr hard cast, 23" barrel on a custom pistol, 1700lbft = enough gun

DJM
The old ft/lb chestnut. Who said X amount of ft/lb was not enough to put down a deer?.
It doesnt work like that, you only have to look at what Bow hunters are doing to realize that.

Instead of making baseless statements do the research.

Dan webster
you are indeed a wise man.
From my experiance i would say that your quoted load would be good for any animal that walks this earth.

regards B

I forgot somthing.

If you put a .44cal hole in ANY animals vitals regardless of how many of those elusive ft/lb
it will be DEAD

B

Bumscratcher,
the original post just stated 44 mag which we assumed was a pistol and not a "44 mag rifle".
However we need to clarify a few points, you say that you shot sveral cows/donkeys etc were they head shots/body shots how far did they run?
Did you get an exit wound?
Do they richocet like a 22lr because of the low velocity?
I do agree with you however with the ft lbs theory, I feel that momentum is far more important, velocity combined with weight is the determining factor..

regards

griff

Griff
My experiance has been with both the rifle and pistol, with the pistol it was almost always a heart/lung shot and had many pass throughs though the ranges were quite short (max about 50yrds from memory)
the rifle was pretty much the same with max range shots of about 125yrds.The horse was shot with the rifle from about 40yrds and from up a tree to the base of the skull ( i was aiming for the atlas joint) at the shot it just collapsed, on inspection the head was only attached by a small amount of skin and flesh on either side of the spin which was ejected through the exit wound.As far as distance traveled after shot some ran some dropped to the shot cows are big animals but are not particulary strong and after you busted a shoulder they didnt seem to want to run of.
as far as wound channel inspection it is very difficult to butcher a cow in the field as they are so big and usually i was on my own, but from the animals that we shot and ate there was no sign of any kind of richocet (though it may happen).

Now we seem to be chatting rationally i can try to explain why large caliber slow moving bullets perform so well.

Firstly its the design of the bullet and more importantly the meplat, if you look at a target shot with a spitzer, around the hole you get a grey halo, if you look at a hole from a wadcutter you will see a perfect hole without halo, thats what happens with these big bullets throught skin and bone. The other big factor is the way the bullets are cast, i have NO experiance with jacketed bullets in .44mag, the bullets i used were hard cast and heat treated wheel weights but i have seen many animals shot by other people with jacketed bullets with the same results.The bullets i was shooting were essentialy solids but if they were not heat treated they would show signs of expansion, these were what we would use to shot the pigs with.
I look back and wonder how they did what they did but they do, have a look at the love affair the Yanks have with handgun hunting and the .44mag and see what they are shooting.They have scoped revolvers in .44mag shooting Big game animals over 100yrds and more, the .44mag is to pistols what the 30.06 is to rifles.
I could mention other things but i have done what i have done with this caliber and ABSOLUTELY believe in it.

Have you ever shot a solid slug through a 12 bore? the devastation is incredable what about out of a 20? 1 of the fellas on the station swore by it, he handloaded rifle bullets in place of the shot and they were stunning and more importantly they were very cheap to run, accuracy wasnt great but it worked for him.
many thanks for your interest B

Bumscratcher,
thanks for the reply,yes I have shot slug/sabot out of a 12 gauge and a 410. Very good close range, but very limited.
My comments came from an article that I read some 20yrs ago in the guns digest, the headline was I think "man stoppers".
the article described just about every pistol magnum calibre available and there stopping power. These were tested on live animals(cows at the slaughter house)and although it described the tests as ugly it was very thorough.
There were no handgun calibres that had outright kills and some had several shots to the brain.
Most if not all had to be despatched with a sledgehammer..

regards

griff

Griff
20 years ago probably all bullets were abit erratic in their performance but things have moved on a bit in particular jacketed bullets
as stated my own experiances have been with cast bullets which have been around for ages and therfore well sorted out.
if you look to semi custom loads from corbon or buffalo bore there heavy lead cast bullets are loaded in .44mag/45.70 (in a pistol!!!)454 casull etc.etc these are all in the class of big game stoppers