Here's a conundrum I've noted with my 20month old lab bitch that's solely for deer work.

On a long lead with a trail it's nose to the ground (after some pratting about) and follow the blood to the carcass.

No lead and things speed up rapidly and very soon we're charging about air scenting with the attendant risk of going off on the rest of the herds fear scent. Unless there is a well defined blood trail that she has been started on.

Seeing as she has been trained on the lead this seems to be a trigger and I allways try to start her off on it, taking it off when we reach thick cover or letting it trail behind her.

But deer don't allways leave blood and to tell the truth the time's I really need her are when there isn't blood. This leads to the casting about. This has worked (like last night) but it seems to be a growing thing and seems to be to the detriment of trailing.

I don't like to leave recoverable deer but I don't want to end up with a dog that slips into air scenting the moment there's a gap in the trail. My fear is that I'll end up with a dog that'll follow the fear scent of the live herd and leave behind the dead fallow 150yards away

Any suggestions?

Bloodhounds are always kept on a long lead when put on a spoor and are only released when wounded game is in sight (or real close, judging from the dog's excitment), to eventually pursue and bring down/stop a fleeing cripple. More than the blood, which is rarely present all along the trail, a trained bloodhound follows the particular scent of a given sick animal and doesn't pay attention to whatever other game trail he may cross.

If its any consolation, my Border willl do the same thing; but as most of my stalking is Roe deer I have never seen it as an issue. I think Andre is correct though; it is not just the visible blood that the dog is following; it is the whole host of to us unknow scents which mark that particular deer which also happens to be wounded. I would go further and say that dogs are probably able to differentiate inbetween individual unwounded deer never mind sorting a wounded from an unwounded one. Where things fall down is that we fail to captialize fully on a dogs wonderful scenting ability through the appropriate training. In effect, the dog does not fully understand how we want it to use its scenting ability...

Do you use a harness as well as a long lead? I firmly believe that leaving the harness on helps to give the dog the correct message as to what is expected of it...In your situation I would go back to the early stages of blood trailing again and lay some trails that she can follow without the lead but with the harness on. I would preferably do this where there is no chance of her air scenting any nearby deer. Let her go at her own pace and make sure that the trails are laid at least a couple of hours previous. Really all you are doing is reinforcing "harness on = nose to the ground blood trailing" . After that, I would say its all down to give the dog expirience and learning how to make the best of her assests and minimizing any faults she has.

Have you thought about letting the local police know you have a trained deer dog for instance? That might gain you both valuable expirience with traffic casualty deer.

Regards,

Pete

Agree with Andre.
As far as I have observed on our moose hunting team, the dogs used for spooring wounded game, work on a combination of blood and air scent.
The "dog man" always use a long leach when spooring.

The same goes for spooring wounded roe. It has happend to me more than ones that I had to call in the dog to find and finish the game in dense brush on broken terrain.

Training modification as Pete recommends. Does the dog have a totally different command to differentiate between the two jobs? If not he should have, then later he'll know he's trailing a runner as opposed to seeking a carcass.
Teach him by association, when nose is down- "find the deer" when he's casting for a dead deer "hi lost." Later you'll be able to correct or at least repeatedly check him when you think he's wrong.
Might be exclusively for deer but still needs 100% stop and recall to prevent running in or running off.

Hallo 1894,

a bloodhound does not follow the blood. It follows always the trap itself. If there is blood, then it makes it easier and you are sure that it is the right way, but it is not a must.

But all feel (or smell) that the hurted (or dead) animal is nereby and then they lift the nose. So I think that is normal. That is especially on wild boar the best assurance to be warned before there will be attack.

We have here some specialists for such dogs. And a dog which has to be really good on such work needs a special training.

I don't know too much about but you can ask on this forum:
http://www.wildundhund.de/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=forum&f=32

It is also a hunting forum and this is the part where education of dogs is discussed. I think there will be some which know more about and speak english.

Best regards

My Bayerische works unleashed. She works vey slowly, as if she was waiting for me. When she was a puppy she would not proceed until she saw me. Now that she is 13 months she will look back over her shoulder looking for me, but if I am not there she will follow until she gets to the animal and then call me.
She works with her nose stuck to the ground, but when she is a few yards from the animal, maybe because the scent she gets from the air is much stronger than the track, she starts sniffing the air while all the hair on her back ruffles. She will make two or three full circles around the animal and then start calling.
I have seen all this because I hide so that she does not see me. This way she starts baying and calling.
Out of a herd of chamois I have seen her find the correct tracks and follow them to the dead buck. She followed the tracks of the fleeing herd for some time then came back n herself and worked there untils she found the ones that were "different". Except for the last few meters, where the chamois had rolled over there was no blood at all on the ground. I guess that even though there is no blood the track of the wounded animal smells diferent.
montero

In Belgium, tracking wounded game in order to recover it is a legal obligation, sanctioned by law. Of course it's an obligation of means, not of results but, nonetheless, failing to do it will bring you to court. There's an official organization regrouping bloodhounds owners (highly trained Bavarians, Hannovers, Teckels)and offering its services free of charge (NB. : dogs have to work to stay in condition). All one has to do is call (all day service) and tracker and dog will come over the same day or the day after, depending on possibilities or estimated wound condition. Their overall success rate is about 60-70%, incl. gut or leg wounds that require tracking for hours over several km.

Montero, your technique is similar to the one sometimes practised in Germany. The dog is trained as a "totenbeller" (= death messenger) and allowed to pick up the trail on his own, while the conductor follows at a distance. Upon finding the dead/sick animal, the dog starts barking non stop (hence, the nickname) to signal his master. Still another less common variant is fixing a check-stick to the dog's collar. When the dog returns, holding the stick in his mouth, the master knows the game is located and then follows the dog who will lead him back to the spot.

1894
Here's what happends when we teach our military working dogs (GSD's) to man-trail, you can modify it to what ever you hunt.

Equipment used is a leather collar, 15ft lead and a chest harness. The dog is on lead all the time. The dog is taught to sit at a pool scent, a pool scent is a pool of scent left by the man (or animal)when in one spot for awhile. When it sits the lead is moved from the collar to the harness, this keys the dog to the job at hand. The dog is then given the track command, and finds the exit to the pool scent and starts tracking.

The track itself is made up of crushed vegetaion,skin raffs (and blood (cells) if tracking a wounded deer) Skin raff's are skin cell's that are shed from the body all the time, these float down and settle on the ground or if the man/animal brushes bushes then the raff's will be on the bushes, when the raff's hit the ground they will start to decay and give off gasses (scent), this is what the dog is tracking. The rate of decay will be slow in cold temp's and the scent will stay low to the ground and speed up in humid conditions and the scent will lift up off the ground. The raff's can also be blown off the track propper and depending on the wind can be as much as 2-10 meters off the trail that the man/animal has laid, this will cause the dog to track down wind of the track propper. We use a harness to allow the dogs free movement of its head, if it wants to lift its head let it, its not necessarily wind scenting it, the skin raffs may have settled on a bush or tree or in hot conditions be rising. If using the lead it is important that you keep up with the dog, if you hold it up or stumble you will check the dog and may put it off the track. If your dog starts on a trail then it should follow the trail and ignor everything else(scent discrimination), trust your dog. If you want get some fresh deer skin and have a friend lay a trail and go back a few stages, you can never train to much. I hope this helps and is not to confusing.

Bakes

I should state that the dog works and works well, it's just the finer points I want to iron out. She's found dead muntjac and roe 50m into VERY heavy cover with no problems and there was no possible way I could use a lead there. It took me 10 minutes just to hack my way in!

I'm going to try to be more consistant in the use of the collar (I use a wide greyhound style collar instead of a harness)be more accurate in the noting of the point of strike and to keep up the training.

She's a great little dog - I just want to keep her that way!

She sounds like a good little worker. Have you ever tried a straight wind scent?

Bakes

Just returned from Kielder Forest which is Roe stalking on tracks between thick forest and on really rough clear fell.

Dog blood trailed my mates doe fawn about 30m into some real thick stuff in the pitch black and found 2 does for me which fell where shot but are instantly lost on the approach as it all looks the same. These were air scented.

We use wind (air) scenting the most if we want to find the bad guys quickly. My old dog picked up and found a intruder during training 1 km away. In close cover you can depend on a good hit (depending on the strength of the wind) up to 300 meters away. I'm always amazed when I see a dog uses its sense's.

Bakes

A dog that work with head both high and low seems to me like a dog with a good head that will be smart enuff to change stiles after the contitions. Can't see any problems with that.

Johan