As most of you will know I am the Stalking co-ordinator for the BASC Isle of Arran stalking scheme,
We have had a complaint sent into BASC that one of our members shot a deer at 280yds, and that we should not be endorsing the practice of military sniping. He is a member of a very exclusive club, and obviously thought this should be brought to our attention..
I woulds like to toss this out to the AR members and get feed back so that I can respond to him with an appropriate Response that would be the consensus of well informed individuals..

regards
griff


I have been asked to apologise to the members concerned who have been offended by some of the remarks made on this thread. There was no malice intended and I can only aplogise if this has been the case.

(Edited by griff 29/05/08)

griff

im trying not to step on my or someone elses border, but from the pictures from arran it dosent look like a long shot is needed much less wanted. most people should be able to make a 300 yard shot with training, but that is shooting not hunting.
the arran stalking scheme sounds to me like you are there to stalk and hunt the animals. not shooting them from far away.

was there a reason for the shooter to take a shot a that distance ?

if not then i would ask him and others what they think stalking means.

best regards

peter

I have stalked Reds in Scotland for 25 years, and anyone who thinks they can consistantly cleanly kill at over 300 yds everytime is kiding themselves.

Of course much depends on the circumstances, if it is a wounded animal then I would have no problem with an experianced person taking the shot, but much depends on terrain and weather.

I do not know the area in question, but all I can say is I would not encourage people to take shots over 200yds, especially if they have never hunted Reds on the open hill before, or have very limited experience. And if they cannot stalk within a reasonable range, then long range shooting should be discouraged.

Shooting at deer at long range is not really my thing...Yes, it can be done and I acknowledge there are people out there with the skill, equipment and desire to do it.

Providing the deer was dispatched quickly and humanly, and the shooter knew what he was doing, I don't see what business of the other person it is to complain..we have enough on our plates fighting the anti's never mind each other..

Strangely, what goes around, comes around.

I recently heard of a complaint levied by a member of the public AGAINST the members of a very exclusive club who had been stalking on Arran.

It was their behaviour in public that was found offensive.

The detail is not for public posting - but illustrates perfectly the issue highlighted in Pete E's last sentence.

Rgds Ian

I suspect the complaint has little to do with that incident in question, but more about the petty attacks and point scoring so prevelant between the shooting organisations that are supposed to represesnt us.
I don"t see what business it is of another organisation to comment on how a BASC member shot a deer if it was done humanely and discreetly. 280 yds is a long shot, but not unreasonable.
good shooting

Dear Mr. Busybody,

Thank you for bringing this matter to my attention. As no beast was wounded and no unnecessary suffering was caused it would seem that the rifle concerned was capable of making the shot. I am sure you are aware that we in the BASC encourage all those shooting to ensure that they shoot well within their capabilities, as appears to have happened in this case, and we place great emphasis upon being both safe and sporting. It must be kept in mind that although a 280 yard shot on game might be considered uncommon here on Arran those with experience of hunting in other parts of the world might consider such a shot unremarkable. As I am sure you are aware anyone who behaves in an unsafe or unsporting, and that might extend to those more interested in the actions of others rather than in keeping their own house in order, manner is unlikely to be invited back to Arran.

If you have any evidence that the shot taken was against the law, was unsafe, was unsporting or resulted in unnecessary suffering for the beast shot then I would be grateful if you could forward this to me.

Once more I would like to thank you for your interest in the Arran scheme and for taking the time to bring such matters to our attention and I can assure you that I will be most meticulous in examining any evidence you might lay before me.

Yours,
etc.

In saying that this sounds like someone playing politics and so it might be wise not to be drawn into a bun fight. When does the BASC poll close? No reason for asking.

Why would a member of an "exclusive club" have any interest in what happens on Arran? Was he there? What's his angle?

It all sounds a bit odd to me and I don't see any evidence that anything "off" took place, though clearly I don't have all the facts. Last time I was at the range I watched a chap shoot a 5 shot group into 0.6 inches at 300 yards. The rifle beside me jumped down into a fox hole and shot 7 into an inch from a position that was far from "bench rest," in fact he would likely have found most "field" positions more solid. I would certainly limit myself to 200 yards but people who can shoot like this consistently at 300 would seem to have no reason not to do so.

quote:

Originally posted by brass thief:
I suspect the complaint has little to do with that incident in question, but more about the petty attacks and point scoring so prevelant between the shooting organisations that are supposed to represesnt us.
I don"t see what business it is of another organisation to comment on how a BASC member shot a deer if it was done humanely and discreetly. 280 yds is a long shot, but not unreasonable.
good shooting

Brass thief,

The ironic thing is that assuming the person making the complaint was taking part in the scheme, he must have been a BASC member as well, as membership is a requirement to take part.

And it also wouldn't surprise me if they weren't also members of the BDS...I am certainly in the three organizations concerned, and know plenty of others who are as well, not to mention other organisations such as the British Sporting Rifle Club and the NRA....

Personally, I feel that Griff should take issue with the person or persons concerned, not an organisation they happen to be members of.

There are good, bad and indifferent people in all walks of life and the membership of our shooting clubs and organisations are no different in that respect.

Regards,

Pete

Petty politics aside....The shooter was on the BASC scheme, shooting on their permission. If BASC and Forest Enterprise are both happy to condone the 280 yard shot at an unwounded Red so be it.
Is the Arran scheme to risk becoming the "Arran sharpshooters club?" No. personally if he flagrantly broke the advisory rules of his host stalker he should be condemned.

Taking the risk of stepping on toes etc..

A shot @ 280 meters can be as solid and good as a shot taken @ 100 meters, it´s pretty much all down to conditions and rifles ability.

However it was hunting that was to be promoted right?

If the rifle in question did not break any guidelines or rules then it´s really a non-issue, and should be dealt with in the way.

The complaint is one of malice in the way that I see this all the time in sweden, pure envy between people or perhaps a personal conflict being taken public like this.

I just assume that there are rules to guide a clean ethical harvest of game, as in the shot has to be confident in a one shot kill and set up the shot as to be able to shot again should need be.

As long as a shot complies to these rules and can answer for him self should he be questioned well then this is once again a non-issue.


On the other hand, any one taking a 280 meter shot and buggering it, should not be allowed back or paroled in some way at least.

Btw I dance like an elephant and I have most likely cauesed some sore toes with above mentioned remarks, in that case let me extend my appologies.

Best regards Chris

Hi griff,

I would take issue with the term "military sniping".

This is the sort of inflammatory language that predicates a certain emotional prejudice on the part of the gentleman who made the complaint, surely as a sport shooter himself he should realise that the business of a military sniper is quite different to pleasure of a sportsman.

The only similarity between the two is a common necessity for accurate shooting. The sportsman achieves this by getting as close as possible to his quarry such that he can be sure to place his shot in the vital spot. The sniper in does not have that luxury; if he is spotted the enemy does not flee into deeper cover but shoot back!

Like Pete E says our disagreements on what constitutes our sport should not spill over to the degree where the anti’s think that we are some sort of fringe society, struggling to hide the excesses of our fellows.

Speaking as someone who has not shot a deer over 100 yards, 280 seems a long shot. But looking at my guide’s photo albums and listening to his accounts of hunts, it was apparent to me that someone with more experience and skill than me should be able to make the shot. The decision of when to shoot I gather is to do with ambient conditions affecting shot placement and extraction of the carcass.

In those circumstances what does it matter if the deer is shot from 28 yards or 280? Shoot a deer with pins and needles in your trigger hand 15 yards from a cliff side and you may well lose it even at 28 yards.

JMHO

Regards,

Amir

Agree with most of the points mentioned here. The complaint was from an individual - NOT another organization.

This needs to be kept in mind.

There are a lot of sad and small minded individuals in this world!

Rgds Ian

There really are some Herberts around! It is of course not really likely that the individual had ever shot at 280m at Thetford without the intervention of the patron saint of hunting

Anyways IMHO Arran is a fusion of recreational stalkers transplanted into a commercial culling operation. Some come up to the mark some don't.

Weather is appalling, terrain is hard and the likelihood of being able to stalk closer quite remote as deer are seen on forestry rides or clearfell.

280m for an experienced stalker using conventional equipment should be possible on a stationary large deer from a good rest with a bit of time to get settled. If you were to see deer frequently or could get closer you might sensibly pass. You don't and can't so go with excellent equipment with which you're familiar and take the consequences of your choices.

I shot the only stag I saw at a lasered 275yards at last light on clearfell in the only good bit of weather I had. I had no way or time to get closer. I know I could make the shot and hit exactly where I aimed. My mates was shot at 80m off sticks after climbing 2km in 15minutes at last light on the last evening - guess which was the more precise shot?

I'd be more confident of making a 280yd shot at a red off of my bipod than I would be at making a 140yd shot off the sticks...

The Guy or Gal made the shot and another cull was added to the list. This is not a sporting lease this is a culling operation open to members of the public that want to be a ranger for the day, (with some help and guidance).

The complaint may have come from an individual but it doesn't mean it doesn't have a political motive or an organisation behind it to discredit a successful scheme and it's organisers. Given the underhand tactics I have seen individuals use to nick a bit of shooting from someone else nothing surprises me in this sphere.

Griff, I learnt very quickly in my industry that when you are in the spotlight you are a more visible target mate

FB

From out here, this whole situation sounds like that kind of snobbishness the rest of the world is fond of attributing to the British. In my backyard, if you can't make a 280 yard shot, you'd better become a vegetarian.
Grizz

There is no political points scoring here!
And I certainly don't want to get into a bun fight with any of the other organisations.
I was asked to comment on this but felt that i would be prejudiced towards an answer, so threw it out to get an unbiased response...
The two gentlemen concerned were on the stalking scheme and had a great time and culled 3 deer, and when the compalint came in I felt quite dissapointed that these two gentlemen had concerns that they sent via a third party instead of coming straight to myself or AMcC
Some one suggested mud slinging I would hope that this is not the case as I would have to re-assess my opoinion of them!!

regards
griff

I see no problem with a 250m shot on an animal the size of a red deer. It all depnds on the skill of the hunter. If no terms and conditions were broken there is no issue. as was mentioned this is a cull not stalking holiday and a job needs to be done. I have seen plenty of people miss/wound deer at far shorter distances and the PH/ghillie gives them a reasurrinh shrug and move on.
For a hunter to shoot on my ground I would expect him/her to shoot 2" groups at 200m. the reason being that with chest high heather and bracken medium range shooting is the norm and deer less than 100m away the exception.
The problem lies with those hunters who think they can shoot game cleanly at 200m just because they can punch paper off a benchrest at 200m.
I will always take the steadiest most reliable killing shot I can and if I can get really close I will but circumstances will dictate.
My response to the chaps would be.
"Clean safe kill, no problem, shake hands and move on"

Mark

I, like some others on this forum, have stalked on the Arran scheme and from what I can remember there are beats where a 280 yard shot might be required. One of our duties as sportsmen is to assess the shot as being humane and decide whether to take it or not. It is somethinhg you learn. The Arran scheme is a great way for less experienced hunters to gain some experience of high ground stalking on reds. The companionship of fellow hunters and the advice of the Forestry Commission Wildlife Ranger and the BASC organiser all go towards developing good hunter behaviour, but there is always the temptation for a stalker who is finding it difficult to approach deer to take a much longer shot than he would normally attempt. But let us be honest with ourselves; how do we learn good behaviour? I hunt with a lot of novice stalkers and they are all terrified of making mistakes having had their consciences fine-tuned by various courses and shooting magazines. This is not a good state of mind in which to learn hunting skills. I reckon that most of us on this site made our mistakes early on in our lives, far from prying eyes or with a good mentor who could correct us. I still make loads of mistakes and I have yet to meet any stalker or hunter, no matter how experienced or from whichever prestigious hunting club that does not do the same. People in glass houses ...

This is a sad, but becoming all the more common unfortunatly,personaly, if you can get in touch with the stalker involved speak to him diectly and without warning then speak to whoever did the butchering on the animal, then from their i would make my case,but I would be ultra critical of the situation and look at it from the complanents view rather than the stalkers and gather as much info of weather conditions etc even going to the spot the shot was taken from and to if poss.

I have been caught up in a few of these, when the guest has been up a seat or elsewere and taken a "tricky" shot.all i can say is get ALL the info you can sit on it and look at it for what it is, IF you get the gut fealing that it was a "bad choice shot" then so be it, but do not argue against that feeling, because it could come back at ya another time and bite ya in the ass. ( i know from experiance).
Good luck and put it down to experiance
Dave

Cranborne Chase makes a good point which might be worth of its own thread and that is that everyone makes mistakes. It might be reasonable to say that with a firearm no mistake is allowed as it could be fatal but on the other hand this projects an image where those new to the sport are required to have experience and this is, of course, impossible. It is going to be impossible to encourage new blood if those with an interest are expected to never make mistakes and so are living off their nerves when they do decide to give it a go.

As someone who is new myself I found it extremely difficult to "break into" shooting and I certainly encountered a lot of "you can't think about doing that, I've been shooting for 20 years and until you've been at it as long as me..." type of attitude. Now, I must also say that I have found a lot of very helpful people as well but I had to hunt them down and I had to get over the attitude of others in the process.

I appreciate that in some small way the BASC are attempting to address this issue with their stalking schemes but, clearly, problems still exist and I would suggest that many of those problems relate to the attitude of "experts" rather than to the keenness of the beginner. If shooting gets the image of being about a list of things you can do wrong, or things that just aren't cricket old chap, then I would guess that most people will look to a sport that is fun rather than one where they will face criticism and exclusion.

So, I wonder how we bridge the gap between the absolute requirement for safety at all times and as a priority and also allowing beginners the room to make non-safety critical mistakes as part of a learning process. Mentoring has been mentioned and it might be a good idea but in my experience the very people who wish to mentor (in a formal role) are often those most keen to show off knowledge and to prove superiorty and so they tend to be the people least well suited to the role. We also have the situation where if I announce that I have access to some wonderful stalking but need a mentor then I don't think I'd have to wait long for offers. On the other hand beginners who have nothing to offer, which must be the vast majority, have much less in the way of openings.

Sorry to hijack the thread but I do think there are interesting issues here even if I have failed to offer any solutions.

Really can not see the problem with shooting a Red at 280m

I have no issue with taking a shot at this distance providing the person taking the shot is competant. But at the end of the day it is not the type of shot I would openly encourage. It is called stalking for a reason, not long range shooting.

What happens on this area when and if someone badly shoots and wounds a deer. Is there a good blood spooring dog available ?

My mate shot a deer on Arran much further than the one in this case, but I was ranging for him on the laser, he was prone/supported on his Roe sack, it was early in the morning(all day to deal with it!) and as Sikamalc has mentioned, I had my dog right there with me. The Ranger has 2 good dogs with him at all times as well.
Whether a shot is "long" or "too long" depends on too many factors to be able to condemn or condone generally. I don"t remember anyone telling us on Arran how far we could shoot, it was left to our discretion, as I think it should be. I don"t envy Griff"s position!
good shooting

You can do what you like on your own ground but I'd wager neither BASC or Forest Enterprise would condone unknown ability client stalkers undertaking 300 yard shots at deer. Griff knows what advice or distance limitations he briefed the guys too...personally I doubt he says "doesn't matter how you do it just kill some deer!"
I don't believe they don't have strict codes and ethical parameters in this fledgling scheme... the problem is the sharpshooter must have boasted he flaunted the code; should have kept it under his hat.
That said, I've never been and I'm only guessing and drawing the thread out for entertainment value.

Griff,

Obviously an emotive subject and so much has already been said...but you did ask for our thoughts

Firstly i think it's shite that the person complaining didn't approach you directly. Had they done so, the incident could have been openly discussed and settled.

The longest shot i've taken was approx 220yds on a static goat whilst hunting a mountain range abroad. However i have regularly shot deer beyond 150yds when the conditions and circumstances have allowed/required it. I have done so with confidence after ensuring the rifle is zero'd, knowing the bullets drop at varying ranges, carefully assessing the wind, etc and after having spent a considerable amount of time being trained to do so in the army with bolt action rifles.I also spend alot of time each year shooting on ranges out to 1000yds.

My basic attitude is that i abide by the directions given by the landowner/organisation allowing me to stalk and endevour to practice self control and common sense at all times. If on Arran, i'd abide by your directions and those issued by BASC.
I'm not about to 2nd guess the shooter as i wasn't with him and haven't seen the site, conditions, etc. I doubt that i'd be condoning such long shots in woodland but really can't see a prob if the terrain was open hills with limited cover.

Marc

I really cannot see any justifiable grounds for complaint by anyone. Everybody on the cull has at least a DSC 1, has paid for the priviledge of being there and their ancillary expenses all have to be considered. I would suggest that this sort of commitment would not be made by anyone other that a dedicated stalker, somebody who has confidence in the shot they are making.

Whether that shot is 100 yards or 300 yards it does not matter as long as they are confident in making it. I have never shot a deer at that distance, but that does not mean that I would not if the opportunity arose and I was confident in taking it. It all depends on the circumstances at any given time, not the holier than thou attitude of onlookers. It's all bloody nonsense.

John

I am a very very novice stalker, although not shooter, and I would agree with many of the comments above; providing the shooter is confident and competent, then I don't necessarily see a problem.

To put it in perspective, my .243's PBR (4" vitals) is 250m, and my 7mm's is 255m; I can hit a fig 11 with open sights every time at 300m with a .223, using a relatively inaccurate weapon and horribly inconsistent ammo, and I am just a slightly-better-than average shot. I see no reason why a competent shot shouldn't be able to hit a 4" circle all day long off a pod at 280m, and set against the norm across the pond it seems quite an 'average' shot.

The concern with being seen to encourage long range shots, as I see it, is that it may encourage a 'varminting' attitude into deer stalking. I'm sure there are people out there who shoot deer from a 4x4 window rest at 300m with a .300WinMag, and thats the kind of lazy, disrespectful and non-"fair chase" hunting that the prejudice against long shots seems to be there to discourage, not the kind of thing described in the first post. I would be amongst the first to condemn that kind of 'live target' shooting.

First let me apologise for including the phrase "exclusive club" but I was so incensed by this stalker that he felt he could complain without any reference to myself! There was an incident on Arran concerning the self same Gentleman, that as far as I was concerned there stalking was going to be terminated and sent home. I gather from speaking personally to several AR members that this is not the first time that this person has complained without contacting the people involved..
I am not prepared to disclose the incident but belive me when I say it warranted instant termination of stalking.. Talk about getting kicked in the nadgers for being understanding, for him only to complain behind my back..

regards
griff

It wasn't week 1 of the stags was it?

Regardless of what the incident was and based upon the information we have I suspect that it would be reasonable to declare this unsportsman like behaviour and to refuse to take any further bookings from this person.

I think that sometimes people lose sight of the fact that being sporting isn't just about what range you take the shot from or using a suitable calibre but is also about how you conduct yourself and general good manners. People can make mistakes but be good sports by apologising for their error but being intentionally difficult and belligerent is quite simply unsporting behaviour and such people should behave in this way with the expectation that they will not be invited back.

Griff,
Hope your nadgers are still in good fettle for the AR weekend.
looking forward to meeting up with you and the rest to the forum.

Tank commander out

quote:

Originally posted by griff:

I am not prepared to disclose the incident but belive me when I say it warranted instant termination of stalking.. Talk about getting kicked in the nadgers for being understanding, for him only to complain behind my back..

regards
griff

Griff - write out 100 times:

"I must remember that no good deed goes unpunished"

Fact is, everytime you go out of your way to help... that seems to be when it turns and bites you on the ass!

QED!

Rgds Ian

quote:

Griff,
Hope your nadgers are still in good fettle for the AR weekend.

Is there some kind of initiation ceremony I am unaware of?

My penny worth.

The estate I shoot over regularly has one or two 'areas' where shots upto 250 yards can be called for. It is a big open v between adjacent mountains, full of hags etc where the deer go when it is wet etc. You need to be competent in the eyes of the stalker etc.

But bear in mind, the stalking / shooting is prone and off of a bi-pod because of heather etc. So, you will be stable. Many people shoot something like a .270 Win with 130 grain bullets or .30-06 with 165 grain bullets.

It is difficult to give an opinion / answer without knowing the 'facts':

shooters ability

shooting conditions - wind

shooting distance

proximity to cover - open hill or edge of forestry plantation if a second, finishing shot was necessary and

time of day, remaining day light if follow up was required - finding the beast.

For what it is worth, if the shooter is competent, his equipment / terminal ballistics satisfactory, the 'conditions' favourable, then I would give the green light.

I appreciate it is an emotive subject, like head / neck shooting by cullers: 'skinners for the larder', but if the shooter is capable and the conditions favourable, I do not have a problem with those doing it.

Stalking is about getting close. Sometimes this is not possible. Culling, however, is less about sport and about putting the required number of beasts in the larder, often with the weather, short hours of daylight and available number of days/ short season acting against you. A different situation altogether.

My limited understanding of the Arran project is BASC memebers are 'helping out' with the cull, so it is different from 'gentlemen stalkers' on the annual stalking holiday / trip.

Do you have to answer this complaint?

If not, I would just leave it be. It doesn't seem like this gentleman would change his mid no matter what you were to say.

...I can't believe I'm reading this.

Only in the perversely politically correct anal retentive United Kingdom could this discussion ever be entertained.

This kind of permissiveness to entertain such ideas and mentally masturbate over non existent issues is purely a parody of correct conduct to the observers, so desired that is bringing your country down.

Nonsense.

quote:

Originally posted by EXPRESS:
...I can't believe I'm reading this.

Only in the perversely politically correct anal retentive United Kingdom could this discussion ever be entertained.

This kind of permissiveness to entertain such ideas and mentally masturbate over non existent issues is purely a parody of correct conduct to the observers, so desired that is bringing your country down.

Nonsense.

Dont beat around the bush and sit on the fence mate.... Say exacty what you mean!!


FB

At the risk of butting in to what appears to be a somewhat parochial debate: anyone who thinks a 280m shot at a deer is "military sniping" obviously doesn't know much about that business. Surely what matters is the outcome of the shot. If it was a clean kill then better keep your opinion to yourself lest someone think you're jealous.

Just my view from across the pond in Canada

Hi Guys, I am the Stalker that made the shot on Arran, 276m on my rangefinder across very rough clearfell, my stalking buddy had shot the calf the morning before in the same location ay about 160m. Stalking across this stuff is noisy and very dangerous, there was zero wind and my rifle was zeroed at 200m, SAKO Finnlight sporting 6-24 x 50 Bushnell 4200 Mil Dot, this rifle shoots cloverleafs at 100m and I have shot it consistently at all ranges including 300m with groups never more than 3 inches at 300. I have been on the Arran scheme five times and in March of 2007 I was fortunate enough to shoot 12 Deer in 4 days, mostly between 120 and 160m but I did take one at 320m where approach was not an option due to open ground, virtually all Deer were shot on high ground in an open hill situation. I have been Stalking for more than 25 years and I shoot rabbits with 17HMR about twice a week, Fox with .223 once a week and Geese with .223 almost every day during the close season, so I get plenty of practice. I have attached a pic of the Hind shot on Arran, a perfect Heart shot, bullet passed between ribs both sides perfectly square on and took the top off the heart, 130gr Nosler Ballistic Tip 54gr of N160. Take a look make up your own minds, however, I would like to mention that the compainant and his partner shot 3 deer between them that week, the first walked in behind them when they walked into the beat the wrong way with the wind behind them and they shot 2 from a high seat 10 mins from their vehicle, they were on the adjoining beat to us, we heard the shots and then received a radio transmission from them asking for help and a dog saying they had 2 deer down but could not find them, we advised them to either wait 30 mins as we were still stalking then we would relay their message to the co-ordinator Griff or one of them should walk out to their vehicle and use their own dogs which were locked in their vehicle. About 15 mins later we decided to call it a day and radioed back to them to see how they were faring, they then advised us they had found the deer but were leaving them overnight as it was too dangerous to recover them. We contacted them again to conform that as the Deer were to be left out all night they should have the vent removed and full grallach as per the briefing, they again confirmed that they had taken out the vent and secured the Deer. We passed their vehicle and saw their headtorches coming out of the trees some 250m off the road, it was now full dark. We drove the 6 miles or so to the point at which we could get a phone signal (Cloudbase) and called Griff to report leaving the beat and reported the 'Herberts from Huberts'(we nicknamed them) as having 2 Deer down, lost then found and Grallached, Griff said who do you mean ? I have just spoken to them and they did not mention shooting any Deer ! Griff contacted them again by phone and it transpired that they had NOT found the Deer and had just buggered off home as it was dark, one of them was wet from the waist down, I think he had fallen in the bern and had had enough. Griff and Bob went back to the scene and found the two Deer exactly where the 'Herberts from Huberts' had said they shot them, about 100m from the high seat plain as day, it is still a mystery why such experienced stalkers should overlook them, much less suffer total amnesia of the event. The 2 Herberts turned up later looking very sheepish and despite a grilling by the BASC representative were allowed to continue stalking, much to my amazement. I suspect this attack is to create a smoke screen to cover their own actions, you decide.

hello to you all!, If anyone is interested, I was the second stalker/spotter of the pair in question on that morning on Arran, A short answer to this "complaint" can be made by me, Yes, the shooter was & is consistently capable of shots @ and beyond this range, the shot was taken @ that range because the beast was out on clearfell, the only way to take the beast was from the edge of the fell on a bipod! endex: