Why do Germans and Austrians mount some scopes like this?



If I mounted my scope that far back, I'd have no eyebrow left? Most of my hunting shots are done from prone or sitting, using a sling for support as much as possible. Shooting like that tends to drive the head forward compared to shooting from a bench.

I assume it is because most Eropean hunting is done from stands where their shooting position is similar to a bench rest position.
You are correct that a person shooting from prone and especially from sitting needs to have the scope mounted much farther forward.
That is a nice looking bolt rifle.

That's correct and OTOH, the most popular European hunting mode being drive hunting, where all shots are taken offhand at running game, the gun is brought up to the shoulder, with the head kept erect.

HP Shooter,

Three reasons:

1. The scope mounts,
2. '98 safeties,
3. Erect shooting position.

A valid point and I find many of the mounts from after the war very high for a good check weld to the stock, especially if the stock has a low comb. A pretty uncomforatble shooting/aiming position in my mind (lie yourself, I'd get bashed by the scope in the eyebrow!) but many pre-war rifles and into the 50's 60' & 70's are like this. Today's modern stocks with a higher comb and new scopes (red dots, etc.) tend to avelviate this, plus as you note here in this photo, German's have a real penchant for their old '98 swing safeties, so they purposely mounted the scopes high to clear the safety and the mounts accordingly manufactured to accommodate this. Today's modern high(er) comb stocks and side safeties, make all of this redundant.

You are correct that the scope is mounted very high in this photo and is typical of many of the Pivot & Claw mounts Germans & Austrians use to quickly remove their scopes from their rifles and drillings. The combination of the height of the mounts and the far reaward position of the scopes to get the correct field of view means you normally have a fairly sloppy cheek weld to the buttstock and the shooter receives a pretty sharp slap in the cheek from recoil. Net, an uncomfortable shooting position, especially for folks with either an extremely short or long neck.

While 95% of the shooting is done from high seats, with selective culling the objective this affords the shooter time enough to get into a shooting position (to nevertheless get bashed in the cheek). The scopes were removed, using the open sights to shoot at moving game on drive hunts.

I cannot determine from the photo exactly what type of mount it is. If it is a Claw Mount then the height is required for two reasons, to clear the safety at the rear of the bolt and the objective bell of the scope to clear the barrel when removed and installed. It has to tip forward to realease the claws in the forward mount. Depending on the position of the mount ring (in this photo about 3/4's of an inch) the angle would have to be increased.

The Pivot Mounts swing to the side meaning the objective/barrel clearance issue was circumvented but still the high safety at the bolt's rear had to be accounted for, so they are also manufactered high.

You'll also note the scope isn't eactly state-of-the-art, typical of 50's 60's manufacture so that would pretty much date the assembly of this rifle/scope combo, too.

Hope this helps,

Cheers,

Gerry

Gerry,
I agree with you for most of your answer, I have some doubt about the age, because it can be older. I think that the scope is very old, the elevation frontal lock screw is the demonstration, with the absence also of the windage turret. The windage was made with a classic two screw regulation, as is possible to see on to the rear part of the mountundert the scope.
I have some doubt about the stock, but at the end my opinion is : it is a military mauser sporterized, maybe before the WWII, maybe updated with a new stock, it is impossible to say looking at the photo.

Steve,

Good observation.

The stock threw me off because the normal European Sporter Mausers tend to have thin shells for a stock so there's not alot of wood on them. Also the checkering pattern appears "modern" to me.

Right you are; the scope may be an earlier pre-war vintage although I have seen some post-war models that had single screw turrets for elevation without windage adjustment turrets.

HP Shooter - can you age the Mauser and the scope for us?

Cheers,

Gerry

Does LOP come into play with the way the scopeis mounted? I'm under the impression that European stocks tend to a slightly longer LOP than American stocks. This would also allow a slightly more rearward scope mounting system.

Gerry, sorry, it's not my rifle so I can't tell you how old it or the scope are.

I just found the picture to be a perfect illustration of what is, to me, an unworkable solution to the use of optical sights.

quote:

Originally posted by Andre Mertens:
the most popular European hunting mode being drive hunting, where all shots are taken offhand at running game, the gun is brought up to the shoulder, with the head kept erect.

Makes sense.

quote:

Originally posted by Andre Mertens:
the most popular European hunting mode being drive hunting

Really, Andre? I know it is a big social event in the Wallone part of Belgium, and there are many driven shoots in Germany, but I would say that many more hours are spent in the field by individuals, still-hunting or sitting on a high seat...or am I way off? Do you have numbers?

Frans
(used to live and hunt in the NL, and Belgium)

quote:

Originally posted by Stu C:
Does LOP come into play with the way the scopeis mounted? I'm under the impression that European stocks tend to a slightly longer LOP than American stocks. This would also allow a slightly more rearward scope mounting system.

Stu has it - being an Aussie of all things . Not only do European rifles normally have a longer LOP than US made guns, the European scopes also have shorter eyerelief. Gradually, Euro scopes are now made with longer eyerelief, but it is not that long ago when the standard for Euro scopes was 8cm (3.15") - in the past, it was probably even shorter. As Gerry pointed out, this is an older scope (gun), and it is quite common to see this setup in guns of that age. These days, few bolt actions would be set up with claw mounts, much too expensive and tricky to boot.

- mike

Frans,
With the exception of Roedeer in certain parts, there's no big game in Flanders (Flanders game law prohibits drive hunting Roe and these are shot stalking or from a highseat, withing a legal shooting plan). OTOH, Wallonie has lots of Roe, Wild Boar, Red deer & some Mouflon (= Corsican ram). A few are stalked but 95% are taken during drive hunts with hounds.