I visited the UK last year (2009) and drove through Bushy Park. Saw these:





Are these typical or large by wild animal standards?
Peter.

I'd say bigger than average. (Depending on what country you're in) But there is bigger around.

They are larger than your average wild fallow buck - but they are about normal for tame 'park deer'.

The quality of their antlers compared to the fallow on my ground makes me weep !

They're huge.

Takes a special trophy to get near that. The scoring of a wild fallow takes a fair account of age, colour etc so it's possible to get gold with significantly smaller than that.

I watched one that looked very similar to the one on the far right (top photo) for 10 minutes on Saturday - this was a wild New Forest deer.

Too good to kill.

Thanks gentlemen! I did not have my bow with me, but, in any case, too many cars!
Peter.

They are mere puppies compared with the one Ghubert shot!

body size would be about the same as the fallow we get here in N.Ireland but most of are fallow are menalistic (dark brown/grey colour) and I have never seen a wild Fallow with antlers anywere near as good quality.
I really enjoy stalking fallow, perfect size deer for the frezer and lets be honest there not the smartest of deer!

A normal buck from the ground I shot on

OJ Simpson wants his gloves back.

OJ can **** away off!!

there are not that many places in the uk where the wild fallow are all as big as these
as our wild fallow population were probaly the most mis-managed of all our deer species for many years, hopefully times are changing and heads are starting to produce once more
a few from some of the places i visit with the camera,
some are wild, some are park




big group of white fallow bucks lay behind a herd of woburn pierre davids




and some wild fallow i shot on my patch over the years




ATB

back to the same old problem, to many young animals shot before they get a chance to show there stuff.

Sorry to go off topic a little- but what is causing the high number of fishtailed antlers in wild populations? Is it really a case of all the best palmated bucks being shot out years ago, leaving the crap to breed - or is it a case of poor nutrition? Or even a local strain - it seems to be nearly 100% in some areas but not in others (which are shot just as hard).

Can a fishtailed buck ever produce 'normal' antlers?

Granted some of the big old fishtailed bucks look lovely - see Amir's big boy for example...

I agree age is the missing link for most fallow trophies, the average buck can't get much over 2/3 in most wild populations before getting noticed.

John
not entirely sure that is the real reason but certainly contributes to it, but if you hav a bad gene pool in your area then , then that needs to be got rid of whilst introducing a good gene pool to be left to breed
thats the hard part unless all others around you commit to the same scheme and with in just a few years you will see the results
ATB

quote:

Originally posted by Boghossian:
Sorry to go off topic a little- but what is causing the high number of fishtailed antlers in wild populations? Is it really a case of all the best palmated bucks being shot out years ago, leaving the crap to breed - or is it a case of poor nutrition? Or even a local strain - it seems to be nearly 100% in some areas but not in others (which are shot just as hard).

Can a fishtailed buck ever produce 'normal' antlers?

Granted some of the big old fishtailed bucks look lovely - see Amir's big boy for example...

I agree age is the missing link for most fallow trophies, the average buck can't get much over 2/3 in most wild populations before getting noticed.

Gabe
in answer to some of your questions i believe that Fallow are more genetic and not nutrition based
a fishtailed buck could possibly produce palmated young but the fishtail will always be in the gene
and i do believe the main problem is the good bucks hav been shot out so only poor bucks were left to breed in the wild
certain parts of the uk hav not seen a palmated buck in decades where 4o mile down the road it's a different case but there is a different management plan in operation where they don't shoot good palmated bucks and shoot only the old or shit heads,
it seems to be working in a fashoin but is still only in developement years

Fishtails are not always fishtails I think it partly genetics, available food and post rut recovery before the onset of winter.

I have seen some bucks produce some very poor fishtail heads one year and then a great head the next year.

There is one thing for sure never judge a deer totally by the antlers as they will always lead you a stray.

Age-Genetics-Nutrition. All must come together to produce top Trophies. Hard to say what is most important. Probably age, +5-6 year old. But I have seen some great 3 year old trophies from "Hot" genetics. Have also noticed that big racks usually also have big bodies. Nutrition.
This is a picture of a specimen where all three factors were definitely in sync.
He was 6 year old, in poor condition due to fight wounds, but had obviously had good feeding during his antler growing period. IMO only Genetics could contribute to the large palms and antler length.

Also forgot to mention
if you hav a bad gene pool in bucks then you will hav a bad gene pool in the Does
both are carriers, so working out which doe to cull is an even bigger issuse, especialy in a wild population

quote:

Originally posted by Richard E:
John
not entirely sure that is the real reason but certainly contributes to it, but if you hav a bad gene pool in your area then , then that needs to be got rid of whilst introducing a good gene pool to be left to breed
thats the hard part unless all others around you commit to the same scheme and with in just a few years you will see the results
ATB

Very interesting - would be curious to know if anyone has successfully implemented this here. Not sure how long a big Petworth buck would make it in the real world without a lot of landowners agreeing to it.

I dont think a Petworth buck would last the Rut.

They are not that big body size and I think would either be injured or seen off by the Wild bucks

I have shot more decent bucks than I would have liked to in the past year. Knocking on bronzes. Not what I would want BUT when it's buck season and the tenant farmer cannot cut hay or graze stock because of deer numbers it's quite hard to let the damage continue just because to shoot is bad for antler size.

And why would the average stalker want to spend years growing trophies in order to push the rent of the ground up?

IMHO 'too good to shoot' works if populations are in control or an estate is willing to put up with damage. Quite a few areas of the country have populations that are way out of control (to the extent that DI etc are trying to stick their oar in) and most farms/foresters don't view big antlers as important enough to warrant increased damage.

Growing wild fallow trophies is a bit hit and miss anyway. To quote Richard Prior a wild gold needs to be born in a good year for trophies and be shot in a good year for trophies (amongst other factors). Those two are rare enough by themselves but add in the requirement to have both and for the buck to survive inbetween and you can see another reason why they are rare.

quote:

Originally posted by 1894mk2:


Growing wild fallow trophies is a bit hit and miss anyway. To quote Richard Prior a wild gold needs to be born in a good year for trophies and be shot in a good year for trophies (amongst other factors). Those two are rare enough by themselves but add in the requirement to have both and for the buck to survive inbetween and you can see another reason why they are rare.

i actually believe mr Prior is slightly wrong here
as you can't grow wild deer trophies only enhance their existence
and a wild gold does not hav to be born in a good year for trophies or harvested in a good a year
as Fallow i believe are genetic
so even a good pricket can produce a good head if his off spring were left to develope
i hav said this before and probaly say it again
Fallow deer , apart from muntjac are the most mis-managed deer in the UK
but then we don't know much about Muntjac either

Very interesting guys - actually I may be glad to be shooting scrubby heads...
If they were all medals a 'damn continental' would probably have bought the stalking a long time ago like they have with the roe!

quote:

Originally posted by Richard E:

quote:

Originally posted by 1894mk2:


Growing wild fallow trophies is a bit hit and miss anyway. To quote Richard Prior a wild gold needs to be born in a good year for trophies and be shot in a good year for trophies (amongst other factors). Those two are rare enough by themselves but add in the requirement to have both and for the buck to survive inbetween and you can see another reason why they are rare.

i actually believe mr Prior is slightly wrong here
as you can't grow wild deer trophies only enhance their existence
and a wild gold does not hav to be born in a good year for trophies or harvested in a good a year
as Fallow i believe are genetic
so even a good pricket can produce a good head if his off spring were left to develope
i hav said this before and probaly say it again
Fallow deer , apart from muntjac are the most mis-managed deer in the UK
but then we don't know much about Muntjac either

I dont think most places mis-manage Muntjac or Fallow.

The management of both is quite simple shoot everything you see that is legal to shoot, ie daylight and in season.

quote:

Originally posted by DJM:

I dont think most places mis-manage Muntjac or Fallow.

The management of both is quite simple shoot everything you see that is legal to shoot, ie daylight and in season.

Whilst that is pretty close to my own view I do think that the buck season is long enough and their rutting habits such that some care is needed not to end up with prickets or sorrels rutting. There are some areas with enough stalkers and fewer fallow (but not many!)

The difficulty is the huge distances that they will move even in one night.

That added to the expanding population and increasing conflict with man i.e. RTA's and crop damage.

Mean that we as Deer Managers first need to grip the situation and at the very least halt recruitment before deer are seen as vermin and it is as easy to obtain an out of season or night shooting licence in England as it is north of the border.

BEFORE we start worrying about which ones look pretty.

1894 you are quite correct that some poeple who have rutting stands of their ground will exploit the Bucks during the rut, but they are generally the ones who will not be out this time of year and weather culling the does that truly control the population.

Anyone who believe they can affect the quality of Wild fallow trophies better be very very rich as they first need to go and buy 100,000 arces of land in a single block and ring fence it

quote:

Originally posted by DJM:

Mean that we as Deer Managers first need to grip the situation and at the very least halt recruitment before deer are seen as vermin

now is that not wot you are saying already

"The management of both is quite simple shoot everything you see that is legal to shoot, ie daylight and in season."

to me that is not managing a species that is controlling numbers
i feel there is a difference
but the worrying part is yes one man/woman can make a difference to the wild fallow trophy population
cos if each of them shot all the best bucks on their ground what is left to breed from??

how many areas in the UK population of wild fallow can you actualy go and shoot medal quality bucks year after year regardless
good bucks but then what do we then class as a good buck

yes, i agree rutting stands are often abused to make money but you sometimes need to pay the rent
but the quality of good heads across the UK is pretty poor on the whole compared to park deer in the same area

quote:

Originally posted by 1894mk2:
I do think that the buck season is long enough and their rutting habits such that some care is needed not to end up with prickets or sorrels rutting. There are some areas with enough stalkers and fewer fallow (but not many!)

i actually think this is not as big an issuse as most make out
as i feel Fallow are more genetic than anything else
so if promising pricket or sorrel that you would leave cos it may make a good buck, then it should not make any difference if it does actually mate and pass it genes on
better than leaving an old poor buck that is the only decent thing left in the area or shitty fishtails to pass on their credentials

The best true wild buck in the Midlands is hanging on my wall


Yep I'm still out therein the ether keeping an eye on you guys

Mark