In what European countries can you hunt in with a hand gun
Dogfox

i know that in many EU countries you can carry a handgun for "humane dispatch" of injured deer, while hunting with a rifle, but this would not include actually going out to look for deer carrying a handgun.
good shooting

neil,

Germany does NOT allow handgun hunting. brass is correct that in Germany you are alowed to carry a (concealed) handgun to use for dipatching wounded game but not as a primary hunting firearm.

Spain and Poland (I think?)

In the UK I now know some guys that use single shot long barrel pistols in rifle calibres (.223 + .308 etc...) for hunting and pest/vermin control as it's done on the calibre rather than the firearm. But true pistols are only used for "humane dispatch" and even then, it's still very rare to be granted permission for one.

Hi Dan
Please could you tell where in the Uk that long barrel pistol(LBP) have beeh granted for vermin, because I am trying to get vermin for my (LBP).
Neil

In Italy handgun hunting is strictly forbidden, neither you may carry a handgun with the hunting licence.

Neil,
What calibre is you LBP?
and what grounds have they denined you on?
The application should be on calibre not type/make of firearm.

My FLO (MET) will only grant .223 for fox and .308 for deer, I tried to get my .44mag LBP for deer but they wouldn't have it because it wasn't powerful enough??

But... then I found out on Sunday that one of guys I was with at Bisley does have .44 mag carbine for deer,(but he falls under Surrey) so now I've got some questions for my FLO!! as the barrel on my LBP is longer than the one on this guys carbine and in theory should deliver more fps and ftlbs.

PS.If you havn't already got shooting rights or land to hunt on you're going to have trouble.

Hi Dan
My LBP is a 6Br in a H&S precision it is very accurate and it is doing under 1/2 inch groups @ 100 yards.I have ask for my LBP to be used for vermin and fox shooting.They are being very obstructive because they think that nobody has a LBP for hunting and they do not want to set a precedent.So it is intresting that there are persons who have LBP for hunting.Dan you have one for hunting and you are in the Met police area if I read it correctly.I have over10,000 acres to shoot on so the ground is no problem.
Neil

Neil,
Mine is a .44mag and hasn't been approved because it's only a .44??
I was told that if I get one in either a .223 or .308 they would allow it.
I'll find who the other I know fall under, but for proof now,
go to,
http://www.modernandantiquefirearms.co.uk/2022/frames.php
and look up product ID PIST05.
It's a .20BR LBP being sold as "ideal for Fox and vermin"???

Should help.

Dan

Dan
The FLO said that I could have my LBP for vermin if I did a probation period in target shooting but they are still messing me about and asking me if I know anbody who have a LBP for hunting.If the gun is legal and I meet the requirements (which I do) they should just give it to me.I have spoken to the guy from M&A firearms and he has said that he does not know anybody who has a LBP for hunting.The 20 BR would be a great calibre to have for vermin shooting in a LBP but you still need to get the police to give it to for that reason.
Neil

Neil,
you will not be allowed to use it in Scotland, as it does not meet the requirements which are:
min cal 240
min vel 2450fps
min ftlbs 1750
regards
griff

I must admit to not liking people treating deer as a different target for a gun. In my very fuddy duddy way I have this hope that people stalk for the love of the chase not just as a different way of shooting a gun they have.

I cannot see how the welfare of a deer is going to be increased by shooting it with what is generaly accepted as a less stable shooting platform/tool.

You may be responsible but the vast majority of 'Short Siberia' or 'Gun Mart' types don't know a roe from a fallow and would not be.

1894, I have stayed away from this topic on the web repeatedly over the years, but I agree with you entirely.

I really don't like to try and impose my views on any subject on anybody else. However, I have long thought that any form of handgun is not a suitable tool to kill any game animal. I am not suggesting they lack the power to deliver a lethal blow, but they do lack the precision. I feel the use of a handgun suggests a lack of respect for the quarry.

It should be any stalkers intention to kill his quarry as quickly and efficiently as possible, and to minimise the chance of inflicting a non-lethal injury to a beast. For the vast majority of us, that means using a centrefire rifle of adequate calibre, equipped with a decent scope. For me, this means that I would never entertain hunting big game with an underpowered rifle, a bow or even an antique front stuffer.

The sawn-off rifle type pistol under discussion here was developed in the States in response to very short rifle seasons for big game. A problem we thankfully do not have here in Europe.

I am sure I will get a kicking for this, but, what the hell......

I wans't going to say anything here either but I'm with 1894 and CD on this. I'm fully behind stalkers being allowed a .32 calibre or similar as a humane killer. Even though in most cases it won't get used for months if not years.

The LBP's may be accurate off of a bench but can you be as sure of a lethal shot with a LBP as you would e with a rifle? If you are talking about stalking to within 10-15yds of your quarry then fine but at 100yds I can't see how this can be a viable chopice of weapon.

There was some mention of vermin shooting too. I hate it when a neighbouring shoot tries other forms of "sport" with vermin for two reasons.

Firstly the feeling that because it is smaller it is less wworthy and so you have less responsibility towards the quarry.

Secondly someone running dogs at night or shooting ineffectively only makes a fox lamp shy and infinately more difficult to get bby the guy that really needs to nail him.

Of course I don't have experience on my side here so if someone can prove that A pistol is equally as effective (and trustworthy) as a rifle then I will alter my opinion.

Hi All
I was not intending to shoot deer with my LBP but if I wanted to I know that I could shoot it out to 100 yards as accurate as most people can with a rifle.I want to use the LBP as a truck gun for shooting vermin because it is shorter than a rifle and easy to move about in a truck.As for accuracy the pistol I shoot will do 1/4 inch groups at 100 yards(I practise to shot 1 inch groups off a bipod).I go stalking for the love of the chase and am very lucky that I stalk alot but if I was going to stalk deer with a LBP(and I find no reason not to) I would only do so if I had the confidance to make it a good shot as with a rifle.As for making a fox lamp shy if it is lamped with running dogs,surly if a person who is lamping foxes on his own ground with dogs then that is their sport and should not be attacked by fellow sport men.I find it very sad that sportmen will attack another sportman because they know little about what that sport entails or they are not intrested in that type of sporting activity.
Neil

Neil,

Thanks for your reply and welcome to the porum. I'm sure you will enjoy it here.

I should clarify my point on the lamping. up to a couple of years ago we were charged with keeping the fox numbers down for a local keeper. The guy released a good few pheasants and partridge so this was an important job for the shoot. There was a chap that did the rabbits and used a lurcher for this. the thing is that everytime he saw a fax off the dog went and never got the fox. The rabbitter had a great time but we couldn't really do our job because the foxes legged it whenever they saw the lamp.

My point is that although many of us view lamping as our sport, (me included), it is also a job in todays countryside. As such it needs to be an effective form of control.

Rgds,
FB

Neil,

Sorry for the delay in coming back to you, I'm still waiting for the info you requested but I have repeatedly left messages for the individuals in question.

Everyone else,

As for the the other points raised, I agree, animals shouldn't be used as 'replacement' targets and folks should only make shots within the capability of either themselves or their equipment (but we all know that anyway, don't we )
I can't comment about lamping as it's not my thing, but if I wish to start pursuing a new type of game of grab the camera before the gun. If I can't get close enough to take a good picture, I know I need more practise before taking a shot. Cameras are an excellent training tool.
As for LBP's, they are definatly capable of competing against rifles, with enough practice can out-shoot them as well.
www.handgunhunt.com addresses pistol capabilties very well and the top guys regularly engage animals 200yrds+ with clean one shot kills.

The handgun hunting and single shot pistol forums on this very site should help dispell any worries as well.

And for people like me, that are right handed but left eyed, pistols are the only way to go, I tried learning to shoot left handed and it was horrible.
I go to the range 1 or 2 times a week and put between 50 and 200 rounds through each of my guns and have competed against rifles with a few of my LBP's and won, I know paper punching and steel plates are a whole different ball-game but if your prepared to to put in the practice there is no reason why LBP's shouldn't be allowed for stalking or vermin. Just because someone has a rifle it doesn't make them a better shot. One of my pistols has a x1 reddot sight and the gents I was competing against had x3-9 scopes on their rifles, I still beat them, my .44mag is a single-shot cannon breech and will shoot MOA at 100m. If you hunt with a pistol you need to get closer, if you can't get close, perhaps you shouldn't be out there in the first place. The recent increase in BP hunting the states has resulted in dramatically improved stalking techniques because the hunters weren't gettting close enough with the skills they used with rifles. Relying on the long range capabilties of the rifle had made them sloppy. I've put in for a variation for .223 pistol and .308 replacement barrel for my .44mag and if I can't hunt the trophies I want here, I'll get them abroad.

Thank you for taking the time to read the inane and mis-spelt ramblings of a pro-pistol dude.

DW

Hunting with a handgun in France is NOT allowed.

Dan,

Thanks for the reply. I never thought pistols would be that accurate but am happy to be proven wrong!!!

Out of curiosity, how do you practice? Is the pistol on a Bipod or sandbag rest?

As for the right handed left eye problem I have found it a problem in the past with shotguns, (not anymore as my right eye is dominant again now) but wouldn't have thought it made a difference for scoped weapons.

Regards,
FB

FB,

My right handed left eyed problem is due to optic nerve damage from a bike crash rather than a lense problem so if I use a scope all I get is 'larger' fuzzy sight picture

When I first started I shot of a sandbag but I now just practice mainly with a standard weaver style hold with hands rested on a bench. Everyone that shoots the pistol suggests fitting a bi-pod but with the groups I'm achieveing I'm not sure it's an expense I really need at the moment (& I'm struggling to see how I'd attach one )

I keep my old cards so I can assess load development and whilst looking through them last night the only changes I've noticed are when a faster powder is used, the group moves about 1/2" up the card, other than that I'm still left with one hole groups off the bench.

I shoot off-hand as well but any more than 40 rounds of .44 mag one session & I wn't be able to move hands to much in the morning

Hi All
I saw in a french shooting magazine an article about shooting with pistols.I think they were shooting in France but I was not sure because I cannot read french.Dan I find it a shame that you might only be able to hunt game abroad.They is know reason why we should not use them in the UK.Fallow Buck I am glad you have had a insight in to the world of LBP shooting and help to remove the blinkers that people seem to wear in the shooting world.
Neil

hi Neil,
I have a scoped .44 revolver, which i just recently got to shoot out to 100 meters. I was amazed at how accurate it is. with iron sights i can keep them all on the chest/shoulders of a roebuck target, and scoped i can keep them all in "the engine room". I have no doubt that, if it were legal, and i was prepared to pass up some shots, i could shoot deer with it.
If you"re using a rifle calibre, then you"ll be more accurate still.
i know that many hunters choose to use bows, muzzle loaders, or hanguns as a more challenging way of harvesting game, for the same reason as i shoot pheasants and ducks with a muzzle loader. I don"t get as many shots off as the next man, but when i bring down a bird, i have a bigger sense of achievement. I have a pump action shotgun which i could use if i just wanted to shoot birds to see them on the ground, but that"s not what it"s about.
I hunted abroad with guys who gutshot and lost deer with 270 or 308 (rifles) and thought the answer was to buy a bigger calibre.
I think the ethics of any shot, with any weapon, comes down to common sense and being honest with yourself. If you can hit a deer target (in the right place)on the range every time, with something that is deer legal, then why could"nt you kill a deer with it at the same distance when offerred the same shot?
welcome to the site,
good shooting

I find it amazing the you can't hunt in France with a handgun as Bow hunting is still ok there??

Neil, There may be some more hope now that Alan Westlake is doing UK conversions to Thompson Centre pistols, they have the strongest reputation for hand guns taking Game all over the world.

quote:

Originally posted by Fallow Buck:
As for the right handed left eye problem I have found it a problem in the past with shotguns, (not anymore as my right eye is dominant again now) but wouldn't have thought it made a difference for scoped weapons.

Regards,
FB

Agreed. I am left handed but right eyed.
It does not make a shred of difference when taking a deliberate shot using a scoped rifle.

Instinctive or snap shooting can be a bit more awkward but with a bit of practice one can become quite reasonable at moving game with either a shotgun or rifle. Off either shoulder for that matter.

With regard to the whole issue of handgun hunting in the UK I find the entire subject rather sordid. The whole thing smacks of grubby scoutmasters, adult ACF instructors, airsoft (whatever that is) and general Walter Mitty-ish activities. Not quite sure why this is but there we go… Just my opinion and no offence meant to anyone here.

I think what we have to do here is seperate the word handgun from what is obviously a very emotive subject.These LBP's or whatever name you would like to give them, are far removed from Joe public's perception of a handgun. A handgun is something you can conceal upon yourself, trying to conceal one of these "LBP's" would get you locked up for having someting extremely large in your trousers..
These "LBP's" are for all intent's and purposes rifle barrels with pistol actions.
The Thompson on the other hand is a different breed all together, it is neither rifle nor pistol.
Perhaps if these "LBP's" were in bolt action or break-open in a rifle caliber, you might find a different attitude towards them!!!

regards
griff

Griff,

Agreed, but What I don't understand then is this. From what I understand these are s/a rifles without a stock... I might have got the wron end of the stick here but if they have rifle calibres and rifle barrels, scopes on top and the only difference is the woodwork really it just seems like an unneccesary handicap.

I know you sauid they were pistol actions, but if they are "an action" that cycles a .308win cartridge, then it is just another style of action that we have so many of already.

Like I said before, I didn;t realise these things could be that accurate, (even though all groups mentioned have been off of the bench), so in the right hands they wil take deer. However if the top guys shoot out too 200 yds and average rifle joe can hit a 500m gong with a bit of practice on the range then the rifle is still the superior weapon (read: the weapon less likely to land you in a mess).

As Brass Thief mentioned at 100 yards he can keep all shots on the chest/shoulders of a roe buck target.... Sorry to be critical but that isn't good enough for a weapon to harvest deer. even with a scope the engine room of a roe is a 7"-8" circle. Any one on this forum that had a rifle shooting those kind of groups would bin it or the ammo.

griff, what's the minimum group to pass the DSC shooting test? 3" at 100m?

Anyway, these things sound like fun to punch paper with but when all is said and done I still can't see them as a sensible deer weapon.

Rgds,
FB

Hi FB,

Brassthief was refering to a .44mag (which we all know, you can't hunt with anyway )
the other 'pistols' we are a talking about aren't pistols at all. They are indeed rifles just with different stocks and (mostly) in deer/vermin legal calibres 6mm, .243, .308, 7mm, .45/70 etc the choice is endless.

Some might see this as a handicap, I don't. As mentioned above, I find rifles a highly fustrating subject, I love shooting/hunting and firearms in general and the fact that I can't succesfully use a rifle bugs the hell out of me. Two weeks before the bike crash which damaged my optic nerve I was working in the US as riflery instructor and coach.
I am now as proficent with my LBP's as some of the guys in my club are with their rifles (and better than some)
If we long barrelled pistoleers were to pass our DSC with our prefered tools, would you find it slightly more acceptable?

DW

Change of topic: I still don't understand why I can't use my .44 for fox though?

Dan,

I don't know if passing the DSC would make much differenceto my mind. It sounds to me like you have a very specific set of circumstances, so your argument is somewhat stronger.

Is it that you basically can't see through the right eye and are right handed? I have a freind who lost an eye to some stray shot, and he has learnt to shoot lefthanded and now competes at a very high level. It takes a long time to unlearn a lifetimes habits.

Like I mentioned before, I am not particularly keen on telling anyone what they should or shouldn't do especially without the facts. It's just that on paper my initial reaction is not pro. I hate not being pro gun related stuff!!!

Could you post some pictures of your LBP's to give us an idea of what it looks like.

Regards,
FB

There you go, I pulled this off another site as I can't post my own pics at the mo'. ( no Camera!!) Mine is scoped.


Others you can get

FB,
I think what needs clearing up hear is the difference between what is obviuosly a dedicated long barrelled pistol like the thomsom,wichita and the pro series, as opposed to the likes of a long barreled revolver like the python or redhawk, I'm not sure if these had been adapted to overcome the legislation that arose from Dunblane.
I have never heard the likes of the Wichita or the contender/center being called anything other than silhouette pistols.The LBP's immediately conjur up long barrelled revolver, which I think if it is in a pistol caliber would be more aptly named.
Then of course I could be wrong!!

regards
griff

These are exactly what I was refering to as "sawn-off-rifles".

These were developed in the US to facilitate deer hunting in the States beyond the traditionally quite short centrefire rifle seasons; ie, they were designed to perform in as rifle-like a fashion as possible while still qualifying as "pistols".

I accept Dan may have a legitimate handicap which prevents him using a conventional rifle effectively (I'm blind in one eye myself - the left thankfully). If a guy could pass the DSC accuracy tests with one of these in 7/08 for example, I suppose a case could be made to use these on deer. But beyond that I wonder the point behind these things in our context.

Hi
The point of using a LBP for hunting is that it is my choice and the choice any other persons who would like to use a LBP for hunting.I know my limitaions as I know my limitions with a rifle.I and I alone am the only person who can make that decision.

It is freedom of choice and as long as you kill it humanly that is all that matters.You would not try to shoot a deer off hand with no rest at a 100 yards or more with a rifle but you would try to shoot a deer at the same range off a rest.It is the same with a LBP you would not try to shoot free hand but you would take the shot if you had a rest and the capabilities.

I can not see what the problem is for LBP to be used for hunting.
neil

+1