Heard a suggestion the other day that they...(that is the powers that be) are considering introducing an open season on red deer stag in the uk (perhaps only Scotland) as a way of managing numbers which are apparently or alledgedly.....take your pick on choice of words there....out of control.
Any thoughts or feelings on the matter?

cheers
Roebuck

They have an open season now?? You mean end the close season so they can be shot all year around?

The deer are not the problem in the UK, it the "powers that be are"...there are plenty of qualified stalkers who would love a chance to stalk, but can't afford the prices. If the estates start puting syndicates of such stalkers on the ground to suppliment there own stalkers, they would soon get the problem brought under control...Trouble is they want their cake and eat it....

Regards,

Pete

Pete,you are of course correct I meant open season all year round on Red stag...but you know what I meant.

I dont think the problem lies with the deer commission,they want the numbers cut,I think the problem lies with the estates and specifically their attitude to the "ordinary" man stalking,from what I have observed estates want to keep the stalking for the upper crust of british society,and US and european clients with plenty of cash to spend.
They would probably make more money by letting more deer be shot by more "ordinary" stalkers than a few deer by the "elite" few.
If the estates are unable or unwilling to get their own act together,then they should be made to do so,they dont own the deer as they are wild and free ranging,what is required is access to them.

Cheers Roebuck222

Roebuck,

I did know what you meant, but was not sure that others from distant shores did...

I think we see the problem basically the same, but I don't think its a class issue or anything like that...I see it as purely commercial greed. I am an average working class guy and I can stalk on any number of top class estates if I am willing to pay my £350 per stag, which I am not..I actually find the stalking world far less class ridden than that of say driven pheasant. But thats a different discussion!

Regards,

Pete

Roebuck/Pete,

Basc has just secured membership stalking on the Isle of Arran..
There is a cull of 120 reds to had on 27,000 acres.
This stalking was once for the few, and will now be open to basc members.
the fine print is not dry yet, so don't quote me on these figures:

one weeks stags approx £200.00
one weeks hinds approx £150.00

we are just finalizing the dates which will start in September through to Feb

Griff
Deer Co-ordinator
Basc

Griff,
that is very interesting and good to hear that it will be open to all BASC members at reasonable rates.
How do they propose to allocate the stalking slots? first come first served? a draw?...I could imagine a lot of people would be interested in such a venture.

cheers Roebuck

Guys,

I have to say that I disagree with some of this.

As you say, I don't think that an open season for Red Stags in Scotland or anywhere else is a good idea. The ultimate aim for all stakers should be deer welfare and if stags start being shot when they come to the feeding pens in the harsh winters, that can only be bad for the herd. estates have been managing deeer for years and I tthink they should continue to do so.

As far as the estates are concerned, I completely disagree with RB222 about they don't own the deer... Legaly they do, as game belongs to the land owner upon whos land the game is present at any time. But this isn't about ownership.

As sportsmen and country men/women, we have placed our sport in the hands of the gamekeepers/stalker/ghillies to manage the shoots moors forests and rivers. this costs money and the game is the only viable way to make it pay. I don't think that £300 to shoot a stag is excessive given the vastness of the operations involved. Personally if I can't afford to go more than every couple of years then so beit, but I don't begrudge those that can. Don't forget that costs have to be recouped in 90 days on the stags with the hinds adding a relatively small revenue. If an Stag is shot every day on an estate then that pays just under £30k. That will make a dent in the wage bill...

So what is the alternative? The estates let people out to reduce deer numbers on the hill for reduced rates? Why should they? They are running a business and as such have to make their own decisions.

This is another pet hate of mine...

Why are we all soooo convinced that deer numbers need to be reduced? Because we have been told as much by "them upstairs". Basically I think this whole thing is a way for the Gov't to make it look like there is a deer problem, and that the current systrem isn't working. Ie you and me going stalking. Result? let's have more "marksmen" and regulation to get the country sports house in order for them.... Ring any bells guys?

Let's not fall victim to more Gov't spin... AGAIN.

Anyway it's too early in the morning for me to be ranting like this!!

Rgds,
FB

Fallow Buck,
Whilst I agree that every stalker should have the best interests of the deer at heart,I think there is something to be said about the need to feed deer during the winter time....Why? is it because there are too many of them and there is not enough food,it certainly has nothing to do with the "harsh" weather that you are talking about,that notion simply does not hold water in the last couple of decades...I dont have exact figures but one only needs to look at scotlands skiing leisure industry...to find it is not really thriving due to Little or no snow.
I also disagree with your view that they have been "managing" the deer herd for years, they have been mismanaging the herd for years hence the unprecedented numbers of them.

]Red deer numbers 'out of control'

JAMES REYNOLDS ENVIRONMENT CORRESPONDENT


UNCONTROLLABLE numbers of wild deer are threatening to ruin Scotland’s high-mountain environment and the government body responsible for controlling the population does not have sufficient power to deal with the situation, according to a new report.

The study, published today by the conservation bodies RSPB and WWF, is likely to upset the Deer Commission for Scotland and cause a new row among Highland lairds who are divided on the issue of culling.

Wild deer numbers are now at unprecedented levels, with red deer alone at more than 400,000, causing an ever-increasing impact on the countryside and a rising toll of road accidents, the report claims.

In June last year, Sigrid Rausing, the heiress to the Tetra Pak fortune, ordered the cull of more than 2,000 deer on her 40,000-acre estate in the Monadhliath mountains to protect the Highlands.

However, another laird, Paul van Vlissingen, the Dutch tycoon who owns an 81,000-acre estate in Ross-shire, has criticised culling after a study found it was ineffective. Instead, Mr van Vlissingen advocates the reintroduction of wolves.

Pete Mayhew, the senior conservation manager for the RSPB Scotland, said: "Deer are a public asset and they have an important place in a balanced landscape, but the three main species of deer in Scotland - red, sika and roe - are at their highest numbers since the war and are still increasing.

"This rising number has to be addressed as it has implications for everyone who works, lives and enjoys the wildlife in rural Scotland."

The Red Deer Commission, now the Deer Commission for Scotland, was established 44 years ago to deal with the excessive numbers. Since then, red deer numbers have trebled, with serious implications for rural Scotland.

According to experts, progressively milder winters coupled with the early arrival of spring have reduced mortality rates and produced stronger young.

The absence of natural predators and the advent of sporting estates have also encouraged the red deer to venture out of their natural woodland habitat on to the open hills, and a decline in sheep grazing is expected to leave huge swathes of grazing land exclusively for deer.

Forestry, agriculture and the rural economy incur greater costs owing to the ever increasing number of deer and widespread damage to the habitat of a range of other wildlife, especially in woodlands, the study says.

The public is also affected as deer take advantage of rural dwellers’ gardens and, more seriously, cause a significant hazard on roads. The number of accidents in the UK caused by collisions or near misses with deer is estimated conservatively at between 20,000 and 42,000 each year. A high proportion of these take place in Scotland, as it supports the bulk of wild deer populations.

Nine drivers and passengers were killed and ten seriously injured in Scotland in a recent five-year period.

The report calls for the Executive to empower and resource the commission so that it can properly enforce improved controls, including amendments to deer seasons, sponsor research to measure deer damage to different interests and set a target to achieve a significant and stable reduction of deer.

Nick Reiter, the director of the Deer Commission for Scotland, said: "It is misleading to characterise deer as over-running the whole of Scotland. The Deer Commission for Scotland is focusing its efforts on areas where local deer densities are causing measurable serious damage, or risk to the public. We are working closer than ever with all concerned to address more general issues.

"Whilst regulation has its place, sustainable deer management has to be a long-term, local and collaborative responsibility as part of a holistic approach to land use. Wolves and red tape won’t crack it."

A spokesman for the Executive said the report added to the debate on deer management, and that officials were working with the commission to examine options to strengthen its powers over deer management. "We are also helping the Deer Commission for Scotland to press ahead with co-ordinated action within current legislation to achieve early progress on important environmental and road safety objectives," he said.

Simon Pepper, the director of WWF Scotland, said: "It is up to the Executive to take responsibility for this issue and equip the deer commission to tackle the problem more effectively."
taken from the Scotsman newspaper

I have never shot a deer yet with a tag in its ear,they are wild roaming beasts...yet you contend that they "belong" to someone...the land does not the animal,besides which when (as happens frequently in the highlands) they jump out and cause a car accident,do you think the estate would want to know about "their" deer and take responsibility..yeah of course they would.
As regarding wage bills and revenue,why dont I give the estate £150 for this I get permission to shoot and keep a stag < 10 points (leave the trophies for the guys with deep pockets) or hind in the appropriate season, I get access to the hill to shoot said stag or hind,no argo cat driver,pony man,stalker (aka gunbearer) etc to pay to "help" me.

whatever you say you surely cant claim that events like glenfeshie in recent years are down to good estate management.
somethings got to give.

Cheers roebuck

RB22

The article you post is exactly the kind of thing I am talking about. For exaple they site an estimate for collisions and "NEAR MISSES"... The inclusion of near misses into the number provides the writer with the opportunity to sensationalise the numbers. After all in the next line they state that 19 people have been killed or injured in the last 5 years by Deer in the WHOLE of Scotland. How can you count near misses or even define them to start off with?!??!?!

I shoot on and around the ashdown forest and see many road accidents involving deer. Almost exclusively these involve non local drivers and motorcyclists who use the country roads for some kind of speed trial. A guy that hits a deer because he is riding his bike at nearly 100mph gets no sympathy from me. I watched him get carted off. As did the guy who wrote off his Jag at 80mph against a Fallow buck. How many stalkers on this forum have had collisions with deer? I bet it is almost none becausee we respect the fact they are present and drive accordingly. Let's not blame the deer for the behaviour of bad drivers.

On your other point of Esstate responsibility, one of our local estates that we cull for has been forced to cut their woodland 20ft back from the road to help drivers see deer before they step out onto the road. They have done this happpily.

Again your £150 would buy you a days hind stalking easily especially as you are local. the guy I stalked with last year chharges £100 and I'm sure you can buy a carcass for ess than £50 if you negotiated with the estate in advance. You get your sport and they maintain a business. What I disagree with is that a stalker should be left unsupervised on an estate. Many are not as honest as us, and take advantage of the freedom. The result is that unless you or I go and get a stalking lease, we need to go out acccompanied.

As for Glefeshie. That was the worst course of action that could have taken place. I agree with you there. But I think it was the result not of bad management but of an ill motivated DCS. The manner in which the cull was conducted was the problem, not that the cull was needed. Why didn't the DCS say to the estate in advance that they wanted more deer shot rather than act in the way they did? Surely then , you , I , & and a few other fellas could have taken advantage of some "special offers". Incidentally as you mentioned it, it was harsh weather pushing deer into forestery that was sited as the reason the DCS took the action it did?? We may not be kneee deep in powder but that doesn't mean all is lush in the highlands in January.

From a welfare point of view, unless the deer are sufffering as in the LACS estate in the westcountry, I don't think outside forces should be imposed.

Finally.... the article talks about a trebling of Deer in the last 44 years. If you do the Maths, this will work out to an straight lined increase of about 2.55% annualy in the population. considering you need to shoot 25%-30% of the herd to go sideways it looks to me like the estates haven't beena million miles away. they have chosen to increase the herd sizes and if the animals are in good condition and provide a vital income that keeps the estates afloat then so beit.

So if the DCS's actions (and philosophy) is the way we are going forward I think I might found the Corvid and Fox Commision for Sussex, whose ultimate aim would be the welfare of the aforementioned species while reserving the right to go anywhere we like and shoot them with helicpters and organised asssaults....

JMHO,

FB

quote:

Originally posted by griff:
Roebuck/Pete,

Basc has just secured membership stalking on the Isle of Arran..
There is a cull of 120 reds to had on 27,000 acres.
This stalking was once for the few, and will now be open to basc members.
the fine print is not dry yet, so don't quote me on these figures:

one weeks stags approx £200.00
one weeks hinds approx £150.00

we are just finalizing the dates which will start in September through to Feb

Griff
Deer Co-ordinator
Basc

Griff - you have a PM

Hi All,

cost of stalking:
stalkers wages 18,000 per annum
vehicle 8,000 per annum
Insurance liability 5,000 per annum
employers contributions 3,000 per annum
chill running costs 2,000 per annum
argo/pony/quad 1,500 per annum
misc clothing etc 1,000 per annum
Total 38,500

=£105.00 per day

Now how much do you want to pay?

Griff

There you go £105 /day for a Ranger culling a deer every 2 days =£210 cost to taxpayer for each animal.
Open it up to private contractors and the £210 deficit will become a £20 earning/beast and the Enterprise wildlife rangers can become community/amenity rangers and BASC can concentrate on wildfowling and telephone advice; maybe even move marford mill to Bombay!
ps thanks for the wipeout Mr Griff.

What about a season for culling liberals?

quote:

Originally posted by trans-pond:
There you go £105 /day for a Ranger culling a deer every 2 days =£210 cost to taxpayer for each animal.
Open it up to private contractors and the £210 deficit will become a £20 earning/beast and the Enterprise wildlife rangers can become community/amenity rangers and BASC can concentrate on wildfowling and telephone advice; maybe even move marford mill to Bombay!
ps thanks for the wipeout Mr Griff.

My take of this was that these were private estate figures. Seeing as the 90% of people want to stalk stags and that few are capable of the sort of stalking required to make meaningful impacts on hinds then this figure has to be recaptured over a MUCH shorter time period ie the cost is at least £210 per day if not £315.

Forest rangers work very very hard in Scotland. There are rangers who have returned culls of over 1,000 per year! That is bloody hard work, they generaly work at least 6 days a week if not more.

I'm not impressed with what I've heard about contract professionals and the average cull of the average amateur is according to surveys 4 animals a year....

trans-pond,
These figures are not based on rangers, but private estates! however should we want to include the commision rangers the cost would be far above that of the private estates, even now the FE has curtailed the activities of their rangers. Contract stalkers on the other hand are being paid "at the moment " by FE £100.00 a carcass...
Taking into account their public liability ins and other costs, not much profit there...
And as 1894 pointed out there is huge difference between the leisure stalker wanting to be a contract stalker.. most of us would be aware with the associated costs of being an employed stalker.
Culling 1000 carcasses a year would soon knock the stuffing out the leisure stalker, I once had the red mist come down and slaughtered umpteen fallow one morning and didn't finish gralloching and hanging up in the larder until late evening..
so lessoned learned!!!
the leisure stalker has little or no idea of the costs and logistics in removing several carcasses of the hill. We recently purchased an argo to replace the quad which was inadequate for the removal of reds of the hill,Cost new £14000.00 it sits 6 months of the year idle depreciating and with service costs and ins loses even more!!
So @ £20.00 per day stalking how would you remove from the hill "1" red hind weighing say 70kg transport to the larder within the time frame allowed, prepare for the human consumption,fill in all necc paper work clean down larder, back to the hill to continue with the cull.
That is of course if you have an argo or quad or even a larder...
All of which cost money!!!
and you still want to pay £20.00 per day.

The FE have introduced a scheme called "stalking buddy",where you accompany a FE stalker and stalk as if you were a FE stalker..
The costs I'm not sure of but the figure I've heard being bandied about is £30.00 per month..

many thanks

Griff