Gentlemen,
Is the 8mm Brenneke used very much in Europe?
Do any of you have experience with this calibre, if so, what does it have to offer, if anything, over the 8x57 Mauser?

Weidmannsheil.

I have never seen one in Spain, but I have heard people talk about them.

Spain is Europe, but sometimes it isn't. This makes sense to anyone who has been here.

The 8x64S was only "re-introduced" a couple of years back by the Brenneke company. In spite of being a wonderfully versatile caliber, it almost died in the years prior to that. I believe Sellier & Bellot offered ammo for it at least for some years before the Brenneke re-introduction, but I never saw any rifles thus chambered. This has somewhat changed with the re-introduction by Brenneke. The associated media coverage and added interest, has caused a few manufacturers to test the waters to see if there is a market for 8x64S guns. I have personally run across a few on our range, most recently a Blaser R93 semi-weight barrel. It is probably too much to expect this cartridge will become the next 7x64 or .30-06, it is just too late for that. But it is good to see this versatile caliber get another chance, albeit as a niche offering.

Ammo is still scarce. Brenneke offers one type of factory ammo, but the cost is VERY high. S&B also offers the 8x64S, but S&B is not known for super premium ammo. I have not seen brass offered - although I'm sure Brenneke would sell you some (at a price...). Dies could likely be had (RCBS?), but don't expect much of a choice.

The 8x57IS is a great cartridge, in particular loaded to modern pressures in a strong rifle. It almost does what a .30-06 will do, and is better suited to certain types of game and hunting than the .30-06 (driven boar springs to mind). But as good as the 8x57IS is, it is not as versatile as the .30-06. This is where the 8x64S fits in - a caliber using larger diameter bullets (for boar etc), yet allowing somewhat higher velocities than the 8x57IS without being as difficult to shoot as an 8x68S, say. A true mid-bore caliber of excellent versatility using bigger diameter bullets than the .30-06. On paper a great choice, hampered by realities of scarce ammo and components.

- mike

Mike how about the 8x60s which I allways thought was the perfect case length for the standard military mauser mag box?

Much seen nowadays?

I have to plead ignorance about the 8x60S. I know it exists, but that is about it. The x64 case was orginally developed to be able to fit a longer cartridge into the military Mauser systems. The German military eventually turned down the idea, and the x64 calibers were left to fend for themselves as civilian calibers - probably a big part of the reason why the 8x57IS thrived and the 8x64S all but disappeared. So whether the 8x60S is a better fit into a standard Mauser system, I can't say. It should be possible to fit an 8x64S, but I am not aware of the effort to do so??
- mike

A friend of mine has a Brno ZG 47 in 8x64 -a wonderful rifle and caliber!

I think that Harry Selby would have been happy with it instead of his .318 Westley Richards

Husky

Mike.
Thank you for taking the time to write your interesting comments.
Weidmannsheil

quote:

Originally posted by mho:
I have not seen brass offered - although I'm sure Brenneke would sell you some (at a price...).

What do you think who actually *makes* the "Brenneke" brass?!
:-) :-D

Carcano

Hi folks,

Brenneke is offering 8x64S brass for reloaders, the have not stated their supplier to the public and there have been numerous rumors (including S&B)in the past - my tip would be Norma .

For Rifles the 8x64S is listed for both Blaser (R93) and Heym (SR21) but actually any standard receiver length 8x57IS rifle can be reworked.

@mho
I agree on your judgement about the future of the 8x64S. Competition is fierce in this area (.30-06/.300 Mags/30R
Blaser/8x68S/.338-06/8,5x63 Reb and so on).
My impression is that people here either choose the .30-06/.300 Mag or the 8x68S when they are not satisfied with the 8x57 ranging capabilities.
Giving its limited (read expensive!) selection of factory ammunition i would consider the 8x64S a handloaders cartridge for now and propably also the next years.

Cheers
Roman

I own a nice ZG47 in 8x64S. I use only handloaded ammuniontion, normally S&B-cases, which are of good quality, sometimes reformed .35Whelen-cases. With modern high-energy-powders like N550 you can safely get a little more than 2800fps with the 196grs Woodleigh and the Blaser CDP or the 200grs Swift A-Frame. With the 180grs BallisticTip I got 2950fps, pressure-tested at the DEVA! That isnearly .300WM-level! I use the 8x64S for hunting red stag and boars, and I collect every year nearly 50 heads of this big game with the 8x64S with great succes! Perfect for this task!
I think, that the 8x64S is a little more powerful than the .30/06, but it is not such a hard kicker like the 8x68S! I am sure, that, when he was developping this cartridge, Mr. Brenneke was looking over the atlantic to the holy cow of the american shooters!

quote:

Originally posted by Monastery-Forester:
I am sure, that, when he was developping this cartridge, Mr. Brenneke was looking over the atlantic to the holy cow of the american shooters!

No.
When he developed it, he looked at the German army. But they didn't look at him. So it became a civilian hunting cartridge.

Carcano

My little friend carcano, when Mr. brenneke developped his 8x64 in 1912, the .30/06 was a military round, too, and Brenneke saw, that the .30/06 was superior to the 8mm Mauser, but when he made the case 7mm longer - nearly exactly the same length like the 06, he could get the the same - or little more - power asthe .30/06!

Tsk tsk. Deficient knowledge, I see. Compare the *contemporary* military ballistics of the 8x57 with the S-Geschoß and of the .30-06, and then come back :-D.

Wilhelm Brenneke took no inspiration from the .30-06, which was itself doubly (!!) inspired by the 8x57. It was both fathered and grandfathered by it, to be precise.

Carcano

Ok, carcano, perhaps you know, that this old german ballistic data were very optimistic, you are right, the military 06 was very soft loaded, but I am sure that Brenneke was inspirated by the american cartridge, the similarity of this two cases is great! The dimensions are very simular, so that the reforming from the 06 to the 8x64S is no problem ( if you use cases of top-european-quality!!!), it is little more simple, to reform the Whelen-case.

I don't care what was first the chicken or the egg.

The 8x64 is a good cartridge, that doesn't get a lot of recognition.

The 30-06 is a good cartridge that does. The difference is .015, and not much else.

I have never seen a 8x64, but I know the cartridge. I personally own 5 30-06 rifles.

Not worth arguing about, is it?

Hi,

I also own a ZG-47 in 8x64S, have not yet using it for hunts. But for handloading it a nice caliber. Will use that rifle for moose and boar hunting.
Have worked up one hunting load with 220grs RN Woodleigh and get around 2555fps, not a maxload.

Cases for 8x64S are made by S&B, Bertram, Hornber and Brenneke.

If you want 8x64 beware of the 8x64J Brenneke wich use .318 diamter of bullets. Look after S-version who handel .323 bullets.

Monastery-Forester, when you reform .35Whelen do you use Remington?
The new Norma .338-06 A-Square case whould be great to necking down for a premium class case!
I have use both S&B 8x64S and reformed Norma .30-06, the S&B have a bigger case capacity 1.5grs with Vv-N160.
Wich powder do like best for 180, 200 and 220grs?

280SWE, do you know if all that is needed to form 8x64S cases from a 7x64 is a neck-up operation?? Or does the shoulder need to be modified, or a "false" shoulder need to be made??

Does anybody know of a source for 8x64S brass in Germany - it seems like there are several manufacturers. Horneber website or retailer, perhaps??

What about dies, what dies are you using for the 8x64S??

- mike

P.S. Just spotted the 8x64S brass at Johannsen's. The Horneber brass is about Euro 1.70 a piece, not exactly cheap. Bertram is a bit cheaper, and S&B is very reasonable, but the quality??

Hi mho,

With the 7x64 cases you need neck-up to .338 or .35 first and after it run cases in the 8x64S full lengt die. This for create a "false" shoulder so you get correct headspace, this gain safty and longer lifetime for the cases.
The first load with the formed cases should be on the "soft" side.

To cut of one step is to use .35Whelen or .338-06 cases. Have try with 9,3x62 with bad result...

I use RCBS die, they work fine!

Have only use S&B and they are ok, is up to three relodings with them and cases looks fine.
Bertram cases have rumorr to be very soft and poor quality!?!
Horneber should be very good cases.
But for the coast of S&B they are a good deal.
In the future I will buy premium Norma .338-06 cases to use.

Here can you se the diffrence between 8x64S and .30-06 cases:

Wow, no such thing as simply necking up the 7x64! But I guess it did make sense to try to maximize the powder capacity of the 8x64S case.

Thanks for that 280! I'm a bit surprised how "popular" the 8x64S seems to be in Sweden. There have been several Swedish posters reporting ownership of 8x64S rifles, compared to only a single poster from the Continent. Most rifles chambered for the 8x64S are probably not that recent (from about 1920 and onwards), but are there any particular reasons for the apparent "popularity" of the 8x64S in Sweden?? For hunting in places where military calibers are outlawed (France etc), and thus ruling out my beloved .30-06, I can't think of a much better of more versatile caliber than the 8x64S. Pity it is so comparatively difficult to feed.
- mike

I tried a lot of reforming with 7x64 cases, always with bad results. Very easy is the the reforming with .35Whelen-cases, I used nickel-plated Remington-cases, but much better than the 7x64 works also the .280Remington, which is used by Werner Reb, when reforming for his 8,5x63Reb.
The famous ZG 47 in 8x64S was pronouced at the beginning of the sixties from the german importer of this tchech. gun, the well known firm of "Waffen-Frankonia", as the optimal gun for the german "Hochwild" (big game). That was before the star of the .30/06 was beginning to shine at the german hunting heaven. I can remember the words from my father, that nearly no hunter know anything about the .30/06 at this time, when he bought a combination gun in this caliber in Austria. He liked this .30/06-caliber very much, although he said, that he could not say why, but he could remember very good the noise from many .30/06 in 1944 in the normandie, before he could spent two years of a special holiday in the USA!

quote:

he could remember very good the noise from many .30/06 in 1944 in the normandie, before he could spent two years of a special holiday in the USA!

In America we call all of those who served in World War Two the "greatest generation".

I am sure the same would be true no matter what side of the war your flag was on or where.

Tough people, doing a tough job, for a country they loved.

Let us talk about hunting and guns, ammunition and dogs........

I do have a Brno model 600 in 8x64.

I have shot a few wildboar and red deer in monteria with GPA 156gr bullet loaded at 3,000fps and it is a very efficient killer.

It is a cartridge that does not deserve the obsolescence it has fallen into.

Quite a shame.

Montero

Monastery,

Your right this is a forum of hunting, and guns, and dogs, and occasionally large breasted matress thrashers.

Like minded men, who enjoy the wilderness, fine guns, and intellegent dogs, also usually enjoy talking about the military.

I hope you are as proud of your father for serving your country as I am of mine, and my grandfather in Eisenhowers US Army, and my great grandfather serving the Kaiser.

I love Germany, you have been the financial backbone of Europe since the 1960s, are one of the few financial world powers, and have given 10,000 times back for the better of Europe. While at the same time suffering the dislike of most non Teutonic Europeans to this day.

Talking about hunting is wonderful, sometimes a little war is good too.

There is nothing wrong with a little Germanic pride!

D99, I have no problems with talking about military things, I spent a longer than usual time in the "Bundeswehr" at the "Long Range Patrol", something like the "Special forces" of the U.S. Army and the SAS of the British Forces.
But I have some problems to be proud of the "Wehrmacht"! I have no problems with the german army of the First World War, where my grandfather was on bord of SMS Seydltz.

I agree but it's not that simple, 2005 isn't 1940.

Hejsan!

Nice! What scope rings are those? The discontinued Warne "premier" (?) rings?

jpb

quote:

Originally posted by 280SWE:
Hi,

I also own a ZG-47 in 8x64S, have not yet using it for hunts. But for handloading it a nice <snip>

Talley?

quote:

Originally posted by D99:
Talley?

I wondered about this initially, but I thought that Talley rings were flat at the top where the 2 halves joined. I saved this image to disk, then zoomed in on it, and the rings meet in a small peak.

I understand that Warne makes a lot of rings, but when I try to visit their website at Warne I get the message "HTTP Error 403

403.6 Forbidden: IP address rejected

This error is caused when the server has a list of IP addresses that are not allowed to access the site, and the IP address you are using is in this list.

Please contact the Web server's administrator if the problem persists."


I can't even send them a damn email to tell them about the problem! Why they don't want customers from Sweden is beyond me! :-(

If anybody could download their pdf catalog and send it to me (PM for my email address), I'd really appreciate it! (or tell them to fix their website!).

jpb

JPB and D99

Warme only offers their maxima rings for Brno ZG-47 and they are sintered (metal powder compressed under high pressure). Actually I think the are of quite poor quality compared to old Warne mounts.

Talley offers 1-inch mounts for Brno.

Cheers
/JOHAN

quote:

Originally posted by mho:
There have been several Swedish posters reporting ownership of 8x64S rifles, compared to only a single poster from the Continent.

There are around three to five posters in the German Wild&Hund Forum who profess to own and use a 8x64S; including one Klosterförster, a very knowledgeable, decent and fairly nice chap, whose mostly very good postings however bear not the *slightest* resemblance to the stuff left here by Monastery Forester. Must be a second case of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde split identity. ;-P

Carcano

Mein lieber Carcano, irgendwann.....

Translation please

Okay, Oldun: Dear Carcano, anywhen.....

Monestary-Forester, just ignore Carcano. On the Internet you run into all sorts of people. There are the helpful and knowledgable, who enjoy sharing their experience with you in a low key manner. Then there are the braggers, obnoxious, conceited, condescending, I-am-better-than-you, know-it-all types, whose purpose of posting is not to discuss issues and share experience, but to try to "score points" over their partners in conversation. Not much you can do about it. Just ignore it and get on with life.
- mike

quote:

Originally posted by mho:
There are the helpful and knowledgable, who enjoy sharing their experience with you in a low key manner.

Sounds quite like Klosterförster indeed.

quote:

Then there are the braggers, obnoxious, conceited, condescending, I-am-better-than-you, know-it-all types,

Sounds quite like Monastery-Forester.
:P

C.

hi monasteryu forester
your knowledge and input have been very well recieved regarding 8x64s
it is a pity there is always someone who starts bitching long may you provide good information /reading for the forum members
scirroco

In Germany we call such persons "Wadenbeißer", that means leg-biter!!!
I know Carcano from a german forum, sometimes - not always - you can discuss very fine with him!
So I could not understand his reaction!

quote:

Originally posted by Monastery-Forester:
I know Carcano from a german forum, sometimes - not always - you can discuss very fine with him!

Definitely; the same if not more is also true for the original Klosterförster.

As you indicated, I only discuss (in the proper sense) where it is warranted and merited; in other cases, a quick sharp bite (or kick) shall suffice.

Carcano