It looks like there is a good possibility that we shall find that all lead cored bullets will be banned from the end of 2010.

The US have banned hunters from using them in all of their National Parks. California has banned them from use in the range of the California condor in central and southern California. .

The RSPB have banned their use on all of their reserves and estates, and the environmental political pressure groups, and animal rights activists are pushing for the UK to adopt a blanket ban from the end of 2010.

Remember you heard it here first.

"Remember you heard it here first"

I think you are right:


http://forums.accuratereloadin...521028011#1521028011

I knew I'd get at least one trout on that particular fly.

Seeing as you're only a wee fishy, I'll put you back in the water, rather than show you the priest.

quote:

Originally posted by Old blue eyes:
It looks like there is a good possibility that we shall find that all lead cored bullets will be banned from the end of 2010.

The US have banned hunters from using them in all of their National Parks. California has banned them from use in the range of the California condor in central and southern California. .

The RSPB have banned their use on all of their reserves and estates, and the environmental political pressure groups, and animal rights activists are pushing for the UK to adopt a blanket ban from the end of 2010.

Remember you heard it here first.

We tried them for the RSPB last year they did not last a fortnight before we reverted to using lead cored bullets.

RSPB are more than happy for us to continue to use lead cored bullets.

quote:

Originally posted by DJM:

We tried them for the RSPB last year they did not last a fortnight before we reverted to using lead cored bullets.

RSPB are more than happy for us to continue to use lead cored bullets.

It would appear as if they have had a change of mind. A lot can happen in the course of 12 months.

We tried them for the RSPB last year

Presumably you haven't been involved with them this year?

Thats because I have been away since the start of the female season, but I can tell you there is no restiction on the use of lead cored bullets from the RSPB.

What I will say is that the various green/anti nutter groups have been putting significant money into research on the "harmful" effects of lead in various situations. One of the key areas of research has been into the possible effects of lead in the backstop of ranges, there have been several recent papers in Nature on the subject for example. That I am aware none have considered that lead was removed from the ground in the first instance. I have no doubt that they are gathering "science" in an attempt to launch a well planned attack on shooting. Their angle will be that any shooting introduces a significant amount of lead into groundwater and this is a bad thing. In fact there was even an article in the BASC magazine recently which was sympathetic to this position.

Organisatons such as RSPB, who must draw a significant proportion of their support and income from the urban man made warming true believer/green nutter type, will almost certainly eventually side with the most alarmist, anti science, anti progress, anti shooting position no matter what common sense tells them.

In view of the way the anti nutters are currently able to manipulate media and gain political support for their loony claims and ideas I suspect that lead rifle bullets will not be available in the UK for much longer. I've no idea what the timescale will be but from reading the science journals I do know that they are preparing to claim that "science" is on their side.

quote:

Originally posted by DJM:
Thats because I have been away since the start of the female season, but I can tell you there is no restiction on the use of lead cored bullets from the RSPB.

It would seem as if we have two different sources of information.
I can't comment upon how current yours might be, but I do know mine is very recent.

As with all things, the true facts will inevitably be revealed at some time sooner or later.

If I hear of anything more current I'll let you know.

A friend of mine who is a ranger with the FC at Kielder was telling me recently that FC is exploring the use of using bullets with no lead core such as the barnes X bullet on FC land, what impact such a small amount of lead would have on the environment is questionable. One only has to look at old sporting estates which must be covered in literally tons of lead and there does not appeart to be any obvious effects.

quote:

Originally posted by Cumbrian:
A friend of mine who is a ranger with the FC at Kielder was telling me recently that FC is exploring the use of using bullets with no lead core such as the barnes X bullet on FC land, what impact such a small amount of lead would have on the environment is questionable. One only has to look at old sporting estates which must be covered in literally tons of lead and there does not appeart to be any obvious effects.

I understand that there are several "bodies" actively looking at the practical use of the current alternatives.There is nothing wrong in being proactive in such matter.IMO

Whilst the science behind the drive might be flawed and been subjected to a large element of political massaging in order to ensure that it assists in achieving a wider political, environmental, and AR activists agendas. There is no denying the fact that lead is a toxic substance and we should be looking to finding viable alternatives.

There is a scientific view that there is no safe level of lead ingestion. Something mightily difficult to achieve given that lead is a naturally occurring substance, and the vast amount of residual lead pollution the industrial world faces combined with the projected amounts the developing 3rd world economy's are expected to produce.

It mainly arises from lead contamination of carcasses.

The adoption of copper only would require redrafting of our firearms laws. No 100gr 243 copper projectiles hence 243 would no longer be legal for Scotland.

Like it or not monolithics have considerable overpenetration issues that make some southern stalking a really risky prospect especially when viewed alongside the huge increase in public access that is currently taking place.

quote:

Originally posted by 1894mk2:
It mainly arises from lead contamination of carcasses.

I think there was one area in the US where shot deer were removed from some food programme. When the science was examined it was found that hunters who shot their own animals with lead bullets had lower blood lead levels than the average. It is also the case that the condor seems to be the reason for removal of lead bullets in the communist republic of california.

Now, I don't have what I would consider good science to support any of my statements but the general impression I gain is that lead in meat is at the very bottom of the list of reasons for the concerted campaign to limit access to lead bullets.

I am fairly certain that the key motivating factor behind this is rooted in various pressre groups who want to stop shooting any way they can and who have learned some lessons from their failure with hunting. It is useful to remember that in a decade Greenpeace and FoE spent £10 billion on PR alone for their "man made warming" lie. These people have a lot of cash and that buys you a lot of impact.

who knew bullets could be dangerous?

Monolithics are also banned from all Military Ranges in the UK.

DJM,

I'm really surprised by your comment that you're not restricted from using lead core on RSPB land. I have a mate who stalks some of their ground up by Loch Lomand who gripes that he is banned from using lead.

He once showed me a report that included the x-ray of a shot deer when i questioned him about it. I have no idea which actual bullet was used, calibre, etc but essentially the x-ray showed how the carcass was liberally peppered with bullet fragments and being lead cored, the fragments were assumed to contain lead...hence the restriction as all carcasses are passed on to a game dealer and enter the food chain.

Unfortunately he's less than happy with the performance of Barnes bullets (and the price) so he's currently trying to source some of the new Hornady GMX.

Lastly, he's real anal about cleaning his guns and notes the increased fouling with the Barnes, compared with conventional bullets.

It is shown on youtube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdKlubTRkk8

Or search on leadbullet fragmentation

if a person wanted trouble, he could of course argue that there is a rather simple solution to this lead fragtment issue.
and that would be stop using piss ant calibers going at warp speeds and start using decent size calibers at around 2100-2400 fps, where the bullets hold together and gives penetration without blowing up.
But that would be the last hundred years of wisdom against the last 20 year's of fad's and that arguement would proberly never end as old wisdom is never as good as young beliefs....

best

peter

quote:

Originally posted by ScotsGun:
DJM,

I'm really surprised by your comment that you're not restricted from using lead core on RSPB land. I have a mate who stalks some of their ground up by Loch Lomand who gripes that he is banned from using lead.

He once showed me a report that included the x-ray of a shot deer when i questioned him about it. I have no idea which actual bullet was used, calibre, etc but essentially the x-ray showed how the carcass was liberally peppered with bullet fragments and being lead cored, the fragments were assumed to contain lead...hence the restriction as all carcasses are passed on to a game dealer and enter the food chain.

Unfortunately he's less than happy with the performance of Barnes bullets (and the price) so he's currently trying to source some of the new Hornady GMX.

Lastly, he's real anal about cleaning his guns and notes the increased fouling with the Barnes, compared with conventional bullets.

Such Xrays are all fine and good, but show me any medical reports of people suffering lead poisoning from eating venison?

Eating venison from deer (or other game)taken with lead bullets has been going on a long time, and I've never heard of any cases of lead poisoning...

As said by others earlier, the real issue here isn't health and safety, but its just another attack on shooting, albiet one that is being somewhat masked...

Regards,

Peter

Pete,
I didn't say that i agreed with the restriction.

I myself mainly use a Steyr SSG69 in 308 calibre with a Hornady 168gr A-Max pushing at around 2600

I fully understand Scotsgun but as Pete, and others, have pointed out there is no evidence to associate the use of lead bullets with elevated levels of lead in humans. However, the greens are spending a lot of cash looking into a lot of angles on lead and shooting is likely to be one of the main victims if the "data" they are producing becomes "as everyone knows..." in much the same way as they have created the false impression that "as everyone knows carbon dioxide is a pollutant." That they are able to paint CO2, which plants depend upon and therefore so does all life on earth, as a pollutant in the eyes of the less intelligent in the media and society gives you some idea of the power of green cash to buy infulence. Think what they could do with lead!

We must, therefore, be very careful in what we say, in our use of langauge and in how we present even the things that we don't believe in. As a result of your post there might be someone out there saying to his mates "I know a bloke who saw Xrays and the lead was everywhere and if you eat the meat it will kill you..." You know how stories spread.

The greens/antis are very careful in their use of language and they spend big, big money on their propaganda every year. We need to try, as best we can, to counter this every time we speak or write.

I too have seen the Xrays you talk about but I've never seen any evidence that those who shoot and eat their own venison have elevated levels of lead in their blood, in fact the science seems to indicate quite the opposite. The Xrays you are discussing also look a bit "too good to be true" to my eyes and I can't imagine how the lead travelled so far from the impact site and so I am given to consider that, at best, it represents a worst case situation prepared under conditions designed to scare and alarm. In truth it might just be a fake. No matter which there is no connection between eating venison shot with lead bullets and blood lead levels.

http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/toxpr...s132.html#bookmark04

Generally you eat it...you excrete it.

This is all just so much eyewash. Even if the animal has traces of lead around the wound channel, that flesh is usually not consumed and is thrown away because of bruising. That is where it stops. If the animal is dead, so is the heart, no pumping of anything anywhere. The unfortunate thing is that vote hunting parasites [politicians] go for this type of drivel and dimwit media pass it on as fact.