More Health and Safety crap from our esteemed government and political shits. It shows the complete lack of understanding as the politicians and thier suit clad lackies sip G&T in the House of Commons Bar but our Soldiers/Sailors and Airmen have to go in harms way without the facility for proper training and equipment, I dont think they really understand we are at WAR at this precise moment and people are dying . This also has an effect on all civilian shooters as well.

"Dear shooter you may have heard of the Army's intention to reduce
muzzle
energy on Military Ranges. Below is copied the latest information I
have
which I believe is due to appear on the NRA Website shortly. Regards
Harry

*_A View from the NRA_*

*Muzzle Energy and the MoD*

Along with clubs and individuals the NRA found itself on the back foot
when we were quietly told in the last week in October 2007 that the MoD

had agreed to change the muzzle energy rates for use of their ranges by

civilians from 7000 joules to 3800 joules. This news caused great
consternation as effectively it meant that Target Rifle, Match Rifle, F

Class and other forms of long range shooting were effectively banned on

all MoD ranges and Bisley.

Urgent discussions between the NRA and the MoD revealed that a decision

had not been reached but that this was a proposal. However, to induce a

bit more concern Altcar decided to be a head of the game and to
introduce the new proposed provisions with immediate effect. This
ensured that the knowledge of the proposed change was out in the
general
shooting community at the same time as the Association became aware and

panic ensued. At the same time as the NRA was trying to discover how
serious the issue was and the MoD’s intentions we were simultaneously
under assault from shooters concerned at losing their sport.

In early discussions we learnt that the reason for this proposed change

of policy was that when looking at the introduction of the .338 sniper
rifle the Army had discovered that if fire was not precise, rounds
could
escape from ranges. The muzzle energy of a .338 is 6000+ joules. The
MoD
then carried out a general examination to find a muzzle energy figure
that would guarantee rounds would not escape from ranges. On this basis

they proposed to introduce the 3800 joules limit that meant in terms of

Target Rifle 144 grain bullets were OK but competition ammunition of
155
grain was probably out.

Effectively if no accommodation could be reached most national and
international long range competitions could not be shot in the UK on
most ranges, including Bisley.

A series of urgent meetings took place between the Association and the
MoD, to either get the limits changed upwards or find other ways of
satisfying concerns. We were informed that the general limit of 3800
joules would remain however if we could propose a package of measures
designed to ensure all rounds would be contained by the range stop-butt

then the MoD would consider allowing civilians to shoot ammunition that

exceeded the that figure

To give an example of the scope of this decision to reduce the muzzle
energy limit one has only has to look at ‘historics’, the Black Bess
musket which when fired using black powder generates some of the
highest
muzzle energy figures, exceeding even the .338, accepting that the ball

at most travels a few hundred yards.

Even though this form of measurement is an inexact science the MoD
insist that this is the way in which they will judge what firearms and
ammunition can be fired on their ranges. Discussions around a different

method of measuring or arguments about whether the current 155 grain
bullet is over or under the bar will not be worth the effort, because
we
have tried.

We have to realise that to the military there is no ‘Defence
Imperative’
to allowing us to shoot on their ranges.

In our discussions however they are willing to consider letting
civilians shoot in excess of 3800 joules if we can put in place
procedures that will mean we hit the stop-butt.

*The NRA is determined to do everything it can to ensure all legitimate

shooters can continue to take part in and enjoy their sport.*

To this end the Association has negotiated a months grace to allow us
to
put together proposals designed to meet the needs of the MoD and allow
all of you who shoot full-bore to continue shooting.

The military have indicted that we need to offer ‘comfort’ relating to
the following, Safe Person, Safe Training, Safe Practice and Safe
Place,
in that we have the correct procedures in place to guarantee bullets
will be captured by the stop-butt.

/Safe Person/Training/

The military want to be assured that everyone who shoots on a MoD range

is competent and safe to fire the classes of firearm they are using.

Initially this will probably require each Club Secretary or Chairman to

sign off each individual as being competent and safe, identifying the
types of firearms they are able to fire. If agreed the NRA will supply
by email and the website an agreed form of certificate for clubs to
use.

Going forward it has already been indicated that training of
individuals
will be an issue. As previously informed in this magazine the
Association intends to send to all its clubs the new Probationary
Training pack, originally for them to chose to use or not. As with RCO
courses, it will probably become a requirement for individuals, new to
the sport, to have undertaken an approved course to shoot on MoD
ranges.
The NRA hopefully will be supplying appropriate course material for
clubs to meet this need.

In the future the NRA also believes that to make things easier for
clubs
and individuals that we may need to introduce a ‘Shooting Logbook’ so
that a person’s qualifications, experience and classes of firearms they

are able to fire are recorded in the same document for easy production.

/Safe Practice/

//It has been suggested that in future on a MoD range it will be
necessary for civilians to demonstrate that their fire is accurate from

the outset of a range day. It is proposed that if there is no ‘zero
range’ the shoot should start at 200 yards to ensure all rifles are
zeroed before moving back. This will be inconvenient and will require
that everyone turns up to shoot at an agreed time to get zeroed, with
the whole procedure being monitored closely by RCO’s.

The details of what this means in practice are still to be agreed. For
instance during the Annual Meeting at Bisley to get 1200 competitors to

zero each day would be extremely difficult.

In addition a strict understanding of range orders and compliance will
be essential for clubs to ensure their continued use of MoD ranges.

/Safe Place/

MoD Ranges as we are all aware are strictly inspected, maintained and
controlled environments. Incidentally the ranges at Bisley are leased
from the Army. As such they are inspected and certificated by them
regularly and are thus controlled by the same conditions as those
ranges
run by the MoD. Effectively, the muzzle energy restrictions will affect

Bisley in the same way as any other MoD range. Fortunately we do have
zeroing facilities that other ranges may not have.

The NRA accepts that what is proposed is possibly onerous and will be
seen by many as a further erosion of shooting rights. The Association
however will be attempting to minimise the effects of these changes and

trying to keep everyone shooting.

Any input from clubs and individuals to help achieve this aim is
welcomed. Please contact the NRA by e-mail as we will be fully engaged
on this project and are unlikely to be able to answer all your
telephone
calls during this period. Your input will, however, be fully taken into

account. We hope that by working together and using the considerable
expertise within our wider membership we can achieve a successful
outcome for us all. Updates will be posted regularly on the NRA website

as matters develop."

Mark

So now that the tax payer is footing the olympics bill to the tune of hundreds of millions of pounds, just how many olympic disciplines are now banned or inoperable in the UK?

"Germans who wish to use firearms should join the SS or the SA - ordinary citizens don't need guns, as their having guns doesn't serve the State."

Heinrich Himmler

what"s todays date again?

Greetings Chaps, long time no speak.

l just joined a local shooting club with the intention of learning F - F/TR class style shooting... lt now looks like l'm "out" before l'm "in" so to speak.

ln the words of Blackadder... "They had a brilliant plan, just a shame it was Bollocks!"

Regards.

Dave.
....

The first thought that came to my mind was would this filter down to useage of rifles on private land?

Jon2.

l don't know, but l had a 300wm on my ticket for everything and a good pal north of Brum' had one but could not get clearance for the smaller stuff (l think he's ok now thought). Every Plod authority uses what they call "quidelines" but they can change dramatically from Farce to Farce depending how they judge ground/population density etc...
Time will tell, but you can be sure it's another stick they'll use in the future to beat us with...

Dave.
....

Firstly are we sure this isn't a hoax? I'm sure it was posted in good faith but the green vermin have been very active with hoax information this week. Earlier in the week they produced a fake scientific paper relating to the "man made warming" lie. The clear intention was to undermine the reputation of science which, as I am sure many of you know, provides no supporting evidence for their alarmist claims. The fake paper was so well executed that it was forwarded to me by a professor in a well known university who is an expert in the field. It was only when he realized that he didn't recognise the names of anyone involved in the "research" that it dawned on him and it proved possible to trace the fake back to a high profile member of the "green" movement.

If this is true then it is a most significant development as it is another errosion of the range of firearms and ammo which can be used. The next step will be a change in the FAC such that you can't buy ammo with energy in excess of that stated. For many access to handguns has already been removed, and look at how that has reduced gun culture and crime among the less savoury members of society, and now we effectively lose access to many rifles.

We must also consider the implications of this for shooting over land, for example shooting foxes with a .22. If it is now a requirement that it must be impossible for the round to leave the land then the green vermin will be looking that extended to hunting as well as target shooting and in the majority of cases it will make shooting a rifle on land impossible. In effect it could result in an end to all shooting sports which is, of course, the stated intention of the green vermin.

With that in mind I really do hope it is a hoax, we all know they will not stop at 3800 joules and probably only see this as a starting point so they can pick us off one group at a time.

Hi Caorach

Never occured to me that I was a deeply embedded mole of the anti shooting lobby
Anyway here is th e like to our own esteemed NRA website for authentication.

http://www.nra.org.uk/

Mark

This is not a "hoax" I was on a MOD range yesterday with my club and was told about this and the range wardon confirmed it. but it is not law yet and might not be for a while yet. but it is only for civ'ies and Army etc will be exempt. they are not banning guns but if you have 6.5x284, win mags, etc etc or even a 308 with 168gr heads they will have to be down loaded to the energy limits
but I can't see them testing everyones rounds before they let you on the range!!! Hear in N.Ireland for the last 25 years there was only 1 club that was aloud to use MOD ranges and every member had to be clear by the MOD before you were aloud in the place. now the ranges have been taken over by a privite company, any club can hire a range for the day, no more armed gaurds, no more escorts to the range, nice new plant pots at the gates but they will report you to the police if ur car tax is out of date!!! Now I'm going to invest my money into cronographs I think they sales are going to go though the roof!

quote:

Originally posted by MarkH:


Never occured to me that I was a deeply embedded mole of the anti shooting lobby
http://www.nra.org.uk/[/URL]

Mark

Sorry Mark, I didn't mean to imply that it was you who was hoaxed or carrying out the hoaxing with any intent, as mentioned I've seen a very respected professor hoaxed by the greens this week already and they have the resources and contacts to be quite effective in this area. In saying that this one appears to be coming from too many sources to be a hoax and it has the potential to put an end to shooting sports in this country. Once the MoD ban certain muzzle energies then we hear they are no longer safe for use on private ranges and then they are no longer safe on private land for game or vermin. Next thing we know the greens are demanding the maximum to be reduced to 1,000 joules and so it goes on and on.

If we let them get away with this then we might as well hand in our rifles on Monday morning because they will not rest until they extract the maximum potential to hurt shooting from this.

Ranges are passed for use according to the weapon used after that weapon's template has been used to determine safety arcs and distances. In the case of Bisley it would have been the template for FMJ 144gr 7.62 as from memory the 5.56 SS90 has a lesser template.

For the 338Lapua to be used on a range the 338Lapua template would have to be used. As template use is a very precise art (ie you go right to the very edge but not beyond and don't say I'll add a bit more just for safety) the boundaries of ranges are likely to be just beyond the area denoted as safe by the template. This explains why 144gr FMJ can be safe but 155gr not be.

I don't see what the issue is. The range is designed to shoot a certain ammunition. Other ammunition has previously been shot that is now found to be potentialy unsafe. No accident has yet happened but the evidence is that if the back stop is missed an accident could happen yet there is no procecure currently in place to assure the public/MOD/insurers that the back stop will not be missed.

Options are to do nothing (unnaceptable and uninsurable), invite actions that assure public safety with higher energy to an acceptable (and insurable) level or to introduce the lower energy level. Guess which is the safest....

This has no application whatsoever to shooting on private land. In such cases expanding ammunition is used which has a radicaly different theoretical template (I've never seen one), is shot in a safe direction and at a safe back stop.

They will just have to put a roof over the top of the range for all those people who shoot their rifle with 45 degrees of elevation. That should stop the pesky bullets escaping

It"s all b%^^&*$ks!
A .22 rimfire will leave any range if it"s fired over the backstop.

I think that is our big concern brass thief: it plays right into the hands of those who want shooting and gun ownership banned totally. Recently they have been plugging hard at the line that ranges cause lead poisoning and lead in the groundwater but if they get this muzzle energy thing they will be on the pig's back and any range will need a sterile zone of about 4 miles in every direction.

quote:

Originally posted by brass thief:
It"s all b%^^&*$ks!
A .22 rimfire will leave any range if it"s fired over the backstop.

But it's highly unlikely to leave the danger area - the area inside the prominently displayed red flags where no-one is allowed in case a round for which the range is passed is fired over the back stop etc.

Read what I wrote - I am very rusty but I did do the range officer training which included the theory, making and application of templates - to me what is proposed makes perfect sense. It might be extremely unfortunate but it does make sense.

Told you I was rusty!

Just recieved this e mail

Mark

----- Original Message -----
*From:* NRA Membership Secretary <mailto:memsec@nra.org.uk>
*To:* NRA Membership Secretary <mailto:memsec@nra.org.uk>
*Sent:* Wednesday, November 28, 2007 5:31 PM
*Subject:* Muzzle Energy Update 28th November 2007 - Good News

Following a meeting with the MoD today the NRA is pleased to announce
that there has been an agreement to raise the Muzzle Energy limit to
4500J with immediate effect.
This will mean that all shooters using Target Rifles, Match Rifles and
most F Class Rifles will be able to shoot as normal.
Anyone using ammunition that exceeds the 4500J limit will be unable to
shoot on an MoD range until new conditions have been formally agreed
between the military and the NRA in mid-January 2008.
Going forward, the MoD has set a number of new conditions around the
use
of their ranges. These demand that the Association work in close
partnership with other bodies and our clubs to ensure we meet the
requirements of the military, to guarantee we can keep you all using
ranges as normal.
As soon as we have had an opportunity to fully consider the proposal
from the MoD, we will inform you of its content and the measures we
will
need to introduce to meet the MoD’s expectations.
This represents a major achievement for the NRA. The previously
proposed
muzzle energy limit of 3800J represented a significant threat to our
sport which has been overcome by fast and effective cooperation between

the NRA and the MoD.
Glynn Alger
Secretary General

What's that in ft/lbs?

This is good news although according to the Sako website .300 Win Mag would still be over 4500 joules in muzzle energy. I looked yesterday and I think a .300 comes in at 4700 ish and am not sure what it equates to in ft/lbs but I suppose gives a benchmark of types.

Guys, this little on line energy calculator is really useful. Give it bullet mass and velocity it will tell you energy in various UOM's.

http://www.1728.com/energy.htm