I´m leaving for Limpopo on saturday with Air France from Oslo.
Called Air France to day to give them notice about traveling with firearms.
The lady I spoke to told med that my tuffpack containing two rifles and weighing 22 kilos, must be sendt as extra baggage at a fair of 20 Euro pr kilo.
Firearms are not inclouded in the allowed baggage she said.

My ticket is Economy restricted
and do not say anything about allowable baggage, nor do my itinerary ( booked on internet in January, electronic ticketing )

When I booked the flight I was told by phone that I could have two pc of baggage ( 23 and 12 kilos pluss cabinbag max 5 kilos )

She told me to disregard this and said I can only have 1 baggage max 20 kilos and cabin bag, max 12 kilos.

On the Air France web site it says that hunting firearms is included in the baggage allowance.

I did a polite but hopeless protest, but she promised me to check this out and asked me to call a bit later.
When I did, the office was closed for the day, and now I´m living in despare until tomorrow.

I´m sure some of you must have traveled with Air France to Johannesburg from Europe, but I was treated like I was the first ever traveling with firearms

The Air France web site isn´t to much help eighter....so if any of you can help me out here.......pleeease.

( my tuffpack extra out and home will cost almost as much as my roundtrip fare... sure this cant´t be right ??? )

Arild,

I've never used Air France to Africa, but I've flown it a couple of times with firearms between the US and France. In my experience it was how you thought it would be: 2 pieces of baggage (22k). Was there a change in flights to Africa?

20 euros a kilo seems too much for me!

Arild

Relax - she is wrong. Quote their general conditions: Specifically section D!


8. Baggage
1. Free Baggage allowance
You may carry some Baggage free of charge, subject to the limitations and conditions contained in these Conditions of Carriage, which are available upon request from us.
2. Excess Baggage
You will be required to pay a charge for the carriage of Baggage in excess of the free Baggage allowance, at rates provided by us, and available from us or our Authorized Agents.
3. Items unacceptable as Baggage
You must not include in your Baggage :
(a) items which are likely to endanger the aircraft of persons or property on board the aircraft, such as those specified in the Dangerous Goods Regulations of the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) and in the regulations of the International Air Transport Association (IATA), and in our Regulations, as applicable to you (further information available from us, on request) ;
(b) items the carriage of which is prohibited by the applicable laws or regulations of any State to be flown from or to ;
(c) items which are reasonably considered by us to be unsuitable for carriage because they are dangerous or unsafe by reason of their weight, size, shape or character or which are fragile or perishable having regard to, among other things, the type of the aircraft being used. Information about unacceptable items is available from us, upon request ;
(d) firearms and ammunition, other than for hunting or sporting purposes are prohibited from carriage as Baggage. Firearms and ammunition for hunting purposes may be accepted as Checked Baggage if they are unloaded with the safety catch on, and suitably packed. Carriage of ammunition is subject to the ICAO and IATA Dangerous Goods Regulations, as specified in paragraph (a) hereabove ;
(e) weapons such as antique firearms, swords, knives and similar items may be accepted as Checked Baggage, at our discretion, but will not be permitted in the cabin of the aircraft ;

http://www.airfrance.com/double6/UK/infolocale.nsf/(Loo...2?OpenDocument#rub08

Gives the relevent page!Be sure to print and take with you to the airport. Many supervisors are not completely aufait with their company conditions, and where firearms are concerned naturally want to cover their backs!

Go enjoy your hunt! See me when you get back.

Rgds Ian

Arild,,

First to clear up a little confusion, flights or passengers that originate in or from the USA have different luggage allowences to the rest of the world...In a nut shell they get *alot* more than we do...

I've not flown Air France, but when i was checking on various European carriers, the rules seemed pretty similar..It amounted to 20kg of check-in luggage and 6kg of cabin luggage. Some differed by a couple of kg, but they were all pretty consistant.

In every instance, I was told that your gun case had to be part of your normal luggage allowence and if you went over, it costs extra; a lot extra as you say......None of the airlines i spoke to restricted you to one check-in bag...I think I would ring again and try to speak to somebody else..I found that even with in the same airline, i was told different versions of the rules...once I got what sounded reasonable, i aksed them to email the details so i had something in writing...

The good news was at the airport the case was inspected and checked through without being weighed...A few of our British posters said that would most likely happen, but I was still very nervous at the airport...

With all due respect to Ian, I can't see anything in those regulations that says you get an extra allowence for a rifle case...A lot of European airlines seem to let golfbags and other sporting equipement go "free" but not guncases for some reason...

Regards,

Pete

Pete

Fair points - as you say, it seems that sporting goods do not usually get weighed as part of checked baggage.

Can only base the above on my experience with six different airlines on a total of about 30 flights with firearms.

The technique is to check in the baggage - then ask the attendant to call for a security handler as you have sporting firearms that need to be checked through.

Best of luck!

Rgds Ian

Just like the others have said.. Relax, she`s wrong.
I travelled with Air France a month ago, and there`s was no hazzle. My booking agent made the rifle specification notice for me. Call your booking agent and make them check it!

I was allowed 20 kg of check-in luggage (normally they will allow up to 25kg before you have to pay overweight), plus hand luggage (can`t remember weight restrictions, but thought was more subject to size).. No restrictions on number of check-in luggage.

My booking agent told me though that I probably needed a lockable box for ammo, which I purchased..

Good luck, and good hunting!

Ian,

I think you were one of the original posters who told me not to worry about them weighing my rifle case and you were quite correct, I'm glad to say! The prospect of a large bill before I had even reached RSA was not particularly welcome!

What really got me was just how inconsistent different employee's interpretation of their own company's rules were...your suggestion of carrying a copy of the rules is spot on...

Regards,

Pete

Found the follwing on the Airfrance UK site:
http://www.airfrance.com/uk

"Baggage allowance

The baggage allowance corresponds to the weight or quantity of baggage items that you can transport free-of-charge."

"Presentation

Weight or quantity of baggage items that you can transport is shown on your ticket or Trip Summary if you have an electronic ticket.
If you exceed the baggage allowance, you must pay a supplement when you check in.
The maximum weight of each checked-in baggage item must not exceed 32 kg ((whatever the allowance). The dimensions of your baggage must not exceed 158 cm (height + length + width)."

"Allowance by weight

The authorized weight is shown on your ticket or Trip Summary if you have an electronic ticket.

If you wish to transport baggage items that are heavier than the indicated weight, you must pay a supplement when you check in."

"Allowance by number of baggage items

You are allowed to check in 2 baggage items free-of-charge:

if you are traveling in l´Espace Affaires or l´Espace Première:
32 kg maximum per item,
if you are traveling in Tempo class: 23 kg maximum per item or 32 kg each if you are a Flying Blue Platinum member.
If you wish to transport a larger number of baggage items than is shown on your ticket or your Trip Summary, you will be required to pay a supplement at check-in."

So, it looks like your luggage allowance should appear on your ticket summary..

I don't see anything in these rules or the ones Ian quotes that limits you to just one case for check-in..The only thing that may cause a problem is if the Tuffpack is greater than 158cm (length + height + width)

Regards,

Pete

Arild,

Just checked on line, and a standard Tuffpack is supposed to measure 52" + 12" + 13" which equals 77" or 195.5cm so maybe the orignal lady was correct in that it exceeds the maximum size for a checked-in case so must go as excess??

Lets hope you get a check-in person who doesn't know the rules!

Regards,

Pete

You may get charged excess baggage returning through Jo'burg airport no matter what happens in Europe. Last time I was in the Jo'burg airport they had the weighing in scales right in front of the main doors and all baggage had to weighed there. If you were over you were sent to the cashier to pay before you could get through.

As said, they gave Americans their "preferential" weight allowance which exceeds what everyone else is allowed.

The scales in front of the doors really annoyed me as Qantas usually allows up to 33 kg without charge and if you have a firearms case, normally allows 20 - 33 kgs in one case PLUS the firearms case. But you never deal with the Qantas (or other airport staff) but instead some no service arsehole lackeys of Jo'burg airport. I will avoid Jo'burg whenever I can as a result.

Hope it works out for you. I have always wondered how well a Tuffpak will do if used by non-American passengers, with regard to weight and size restrictions. Please let us know when you return.

All,
what are the requirements of the case does it have to be alloy or is plastic acceptable, will be travelling to Italy to shoot wild boar in Sept.
regards
griff

Griff

Hard plastic/ lockable is acceptable - just ensure the hinges are strengthend as many just rely on a pin not being pushed out.

As per this thread - all your heavy kit into the rifle case as it 'usually' is not weighed as part of your baggage allowance.

Ammunition and bolt travel in my checked luggage - if flying Alitalia you will need a separate lockable metal box for the ammo. Available at the Alitalia desk in Heathrow for about £14.

Enjoy Toscana!

Rgds Ian

griff,

I have always used a sort of common sence rule (stupid me!) but I'm sure a Gun Case is spelled out somewhere in some regulation although I have never had an issue with an Airline on the type of case I use. I use two rules:

1. Meet Regulations.
2. Protect my Ffirearms (from damage or loss).

I use a HARD (palstic or metal), lockable (three combination or two padlock) Gun Cases with a full length hinge. I've used metal (types various types from aluminium to steel) and synthetic, (plastics in it's various formats).

That would NOT include any soft fabrics used on some rifle & shotgun cases reqardless of how stable they may appear to be from the outside (mostly cloth with a wood or fiberboard inner case).

I also continue to refine my extensive travelling with firearms expereinces since sometimes things go smoothly and sometimes you get a glitch somewhere; either from the Airlines or Authorities.

Now, I also take an additional padlock to put through the carrying handle to preclude the possibility of the case being opened even if the combination locks are attempted to be pryed open. The reason was this happened to me once on a trip from Germany to Mallorca with a shotgun case; costing the Airline the replacement of an expensive triple combination shotgun case where someone had attempted to remove the shotgun by prying open the outer two combination locks and splaying the outer ends of the case. Why they didn't manage to spring the third combination lock under the handle open still remains a mystery to me?

I also take a roll of Duct Tape (100 mph tape) which I use to roll around the ends of the cases over the exposed combination and padlocks. This in my expereince assists the locks from hanging up on conveyer belts and in handling and so I can immediately see if someone has been toying with the case.

I also use Gun Socks to protect the Rifles/Shotguns to help reduce the bluing wear (rubbing) I get on some of the Gun Cases I use.

I also Check-In very early (2 1/2 hours) when travelling with firearms to avail myself of additional time due to any issues that may arise with Airline staff & Authorities.

I also AVOID discount carriers where possible and use reputable, Major carriers with Firearms.

I also immediately remove any airline stickers, tags or computer codes (when at my destination)from my Gun Case(s) that may get it re-routed to an undesired destination when on another trip.

I also find SMALLER is better. I've used the Mega-Cases, Rhinos, SKB's, Tuffies but find they are so robust that thy eat up my entire baggage allowance. The Mega-Cases with their wheels, Rollers, Hanldles, and over sturdy construction with two-three rifles easily weigh 25-30 Kilos. They are indesctructable & secure but almost impossible to get into reasonably sized rental autos, overly obtrusive when at my destination and tend to get treated by baggage handlers as the over-sized, heavy pieces of baggage they are (I've seen mine thrown out of aircraft baggage copartment onto the ground!).

Experience is also a major factor in Firearms Travel. The "Hi! I'm inexpereinced (read: never done this before) Help me, Please!" attitude at the Check-In counter normally results in a Bad Expereince. Having done your homework and being entitled to Travel with Firearms on the Airline of your selection and the correct paperwork (especially here in Europe) goes miles towards a potential successful, uneventful trip. A firm, polite and confident attitude at Check-In with a small dose of Common Sence goes a long way.

I've had the entire gamut of inexpereinced Check-In associates who Freak-Out, Haughty, Impolite and Anti-Gun/Hunting Check-In persons and/or Epxerienced, Polite and Helpful Ground Staff. You have to make this determination yourself on how to best handle/resolve these issues.

Have fun in Italy!

To you all... many thanks for advice and moral support in this times of emotions
Talked with another lady at AF this morning (with a charming Swedish twang), and she set the things right. On economy class the baggage limit is 20 kilos wich include my gun case.
Pluss 12 kilos cabin luggage.
That leave me with a total of 32 kilos, wich will make do.

I went to the attic and dug out my old battered, but still ok single rifle aluminum case, with the Winchester it weighed 10 kilos .
The Tuffpak will not see Africa this time.

Then I guess I´m ready guys....se you around in 12 days or so

No sneaky enjoying yourself!!

This is work!!

Rgds Ian

quote:

Experience is also a major factor in Firearms Travel. The "Hi! I'm inexpereinced (read: never done this before) Help me, Please!" attitude at the Check-In counter normally results in a Bad Expereince. Having done your homework and being entitled to Travel with Firearms on the Airline of your selection and the correct paperwork (especially here in Europe) goes miles towards a potential successful, uneventful trip. A firm, polite and confident attitude at Check-In with a small dose of Common Sence goes a long way.

So true! You generally know far more about firearms than the person you meet at checkin - so long as you treat the affair as described by Gerry - all parties tend to relax and good thing happen! :0)

Rgds Ian

quote:

Originally posted by NitroX:
You may get charged excess baggage returning through Jo'burg airport no matter what happens in Europe. Last time I was in the Jo'burg airport they had the weighing in scales right in front of the main doors and all baggage had to weighed there. If you were over you were sent to the cashier to pay before you could get through.

As said, they gave Americans their "preferential" weight allowance which exceeds what everyone else is allowed.

The scales in front of the doors really annoyed me as Qantas usually allows up to 33 kg without charge and if you have a firearms case, normally allows 20 - 33 kgs in one case PLUS the firearms case. But you never deal with the Qantas (or other airport staff) but instead some no service arsehole lackeys of Jo'burg airport. I will avoid Jo'burg whenever I can as a result.

Nitro,

When was this? It sounds almost like some sort of scam????

Last year, the check-in system was pretty much as I expected. I do recall having to take my gun case to some small "security office" where I handed it over...The two guys in there were quite insolent/sarcastic...In fact I had to bite my tongue and remain cordial as I had visions of my rifle case deliberately ending up "missing" if I had said what I felt like saying...

regards,

Pete

Back again guys from Limpopo with six animals on my list
4" steenbuck, 23,5" impala, 28"wildebeest, 30" gemsbuck, 11" warthog and 15" blesbuck.

I got more than I ever hoped for and I´m a happy old hunter right now

The whole setup was fine and we had a great time

Arild,

Fantastic, glad you had a great time!

We'll be looking forward to some photos and a summary of sorts in the near future!

Congrats and well done Arild! Glad to see that it all worked out in the end, and that you had a great time.

Welcome back buddy!

Looking forward to hearing more from the trip!

Rgds Ian

Well done arild,

Looking forward to seeing some of those photo's I'm sure you took!!

FB

If there is interest I can mail the pictures and a short story to one of you guys if you can put it in here on th European forum ?

Even though this was an African hunt, I feel more at home here than on the African site, or will that be all wrong ?
What do the Moderator say... ??

Happy to post for you Arild - just send it on. Title it 'Euro hunter in Africa' and Pete is unlikely to have issues!!

Rgds Ian

Arild,

I have no problems at all with you posting an account of your adventures either here or the African forum or even the African Hunting Reports or all three if you wish!

Either send the stuff to Ian (seeing as he kindly offered first!) or myself and one way or another will get on here for you..

Regards,

Pete