I pretty much asked this question at the "Medium Bore" forum, but I later thought that "European" folks might have more experience with the caliber in question, so:

I have a F. Kettner stalking rifle in 9.3x72 caliber. The only factory ammo available to me is the 193 grain S&B load.

Does anyone have any experience in taking game with this ammunition? I'm contemplating taking the rifle bear hunting and assuming I avoid the heavy shoulder blades, I wonder if I'll get sufficient penetration on a 300 to 500 lb bear with "lung" shots?

I'd guess that the "shield" on boar would be a good test for the stoutness of the load... any experience?

JudgeG,

no own hunting experience, sorry.
The S&B load is the traditional light load (v0 ca. 600 m/s) which is considered very fine for small roe deer. According to German law the load is illegal for heavier game. I would consider it VERY marginal for bear.
Stouter factory loads (v0 ca. 660m/s with 193 grain bullet) have been discontinued for a long time. They were of course used for heavier game, but there will be better cartridges, I think.

Fuhrmann

Here is the factory infomation:

Point
Rounds Per Box: 20

Rifle Ballistics:
Test Gun Barrel Length: 23.5"
Bullet Diameter: .366

Muzzle- 100 YARDS- 200 YARDS- 300 YARDS

Velocity (fps)- 1952 1598 1308 1071

Energy (ft. lbs.)- 1632 1094 733 491

My barrell is 26"+ and range will be within 30 yards.

JudgeG,

1952 fps is 594 m/s. A longer barrel will not help much.
The bullet is soft lead with a very thin jacket.
Note for reloaders: do NOT use any .366 bullets intended for the 9.3x62; 64; 74R)
I certainly would use a 9.3x72R on heavier game if I MUST, but I'd try to avoid shoulder bones, stay out of reach with dangerous game, and be prepared for a long search.

Fuhrmann

Fuhrmann:

Thank you for your information. I just checked the sectional density and found it to be .206 which is better than the .35 Remington with a 200 grain bullet. Energy is about that of the .44 magnum with a 240 grain bullet and only a 200 ft. lbs less than the .35 Rem.

It would seem that since no one would question either of those cartridges for close in bear hunting, the real question is the strength of the bullet, which you so rightly point out.

I've killed 15 or so bears with a traditional bow and am quite aware when one should use patience and should avoid the shoulders. I'd take only broadside (with near leg forward) to slightly quartering-away shots.

Anyone else, particularly with experience, have an opinion?

JudgeG,

please bear in mind that we Europeans (especially Germans) are not used to hunting with handguns, muzzleloaders, or bow and arrow.
Most hunters use overpowered centerfire rifles for relatively small game. So you will gain little information from us. On the contrary, your experience is of interest for us!

I remember my grandfather telling that as a young forester in the 1920s he shot a runaway steer with the 9.3x72R, no problem. Still, in that time hotter loads were available, labelled "for strong, modern guns only". These were not to be used in rifles with BP proof.
The remaining loads today (RWS may do a production run then and now) are weak on purpose, to avoid any troubles.

Right now I am starting to reload for a 9.3x57R/360 (or .360 2 1/4 Express), basically an older and shorter version of the 9.3x72R.
Of course I will want to hunt with it but will limit this to the small roe deer.
From "gut feeling" I would like to have more bullet for heavier game.

Fuhrmann

JudgG, Just out of curiosity, since there a number of good bullets in 9,3 (which I assume are also available in the US), why not reload with a heavier/stronger bullet before going on your hunt?

Wink,

.366 bullets for 9.3x62 etc. should not be used in the 9.3x72R. They may have slightly higher diameter, and certainly they have stronger jackets - not recommended for the BP express type rifling found in many 9.3x72R barrels.
Besides, these bullets are quite heavier than the 193 grain standard. You will only be able to drive them at low speed - working pressure of 9.3x72R is around 2000 bar only.

Fuhrmann

I do have some hard-cast lead bullets that were loaded by the gun's previous owner. The weigh 200 grains and he has listed the velocity (with the load data on the box) as 1950 f.p.s. They are flat-nosed...

I think I'll go find me a South Georgia wild hog and shoot one with the rifle... They weigh about 175 lbs. for a nice boar. They have very heavy grissled "shields" guarding their shoulder and ribs. If I find that the lead bullets completely penetrate the boar, then "bring on the bear", I guess!

I agree with Fuhrmann about the heavier 9.3 bullets. Hawk does make some, but they have very soft jackets.

JudgeG, Eduard Kettner is now a large multi-store purveyor of firearms and accessories in Germany and France. You mention F. Kettner as the builder of the rifle. These days Kettner puts their name on rifles and shotguns made for them by Italian, German and other gunmakers but I doubt they build themselves too many guns. Do you know if their is a relation between E. Kettner and F. Kettner? When do you think your rifle was made?

Wink:

The gun is in the safe and I'm on my way out the door for Crowell, TX and a weekend of shooting double rifles with 12 or so guys... there may be some hogs to hunt, too.

So, give me a little time and I'll post a details of the gun and a picture to see if anyone can help me with a dates, etc.

Judge,
We will discuss the 9,3x72R and Hawk bullets at the DRSS hunt.

JudgeG,

I will be very interested in details once you shot that hog!

Here are some numbers taken from the 1940 RWS handbook:
9.3x72 R: land diam. min. 8.75 mm; groove diam. min. 9.25 mm; twist length 420 mm; max. pressure 1800 atmospheres
9.3x74 R: land diam. min. 9.00 mm; groove diam. min. 9.28 mm; twist length 360 mm; max. pressure 3000 atmospheres.

Listed RWS 9.3x72R loads (1940):
13 g / 200 grain copper jacket SP at 685 m/s / 2247 fps; pressure 1800 atm (extinct for a long time, really a stout load)
12.5 g / 193 grain copper jacket FN at 614 m/s / 2014 fps; pressure 1250 bar (available from RWS also after WW2, similar to S&B load)
14.7 g / 227 grain lead at 443 m/s / 1453 fps; pressure 1150 atmospheres.

See the difference between nitro and nitro-for-black loads. You might want to check if your rifle has nitro proof marks (eagle over N).

Bullets: there is no apparent difference in diameter of bullets for the 9.3x72R and those for the more modern cartridges. My measurements:
255 grain GECO RN (for 9.3x62 etc.): 9.27 mm
283 grain Lapua Mega (for 9.3x62 etc.): 9.28 mm
193 grain S&B (for 9.3x72R): 9.30 mm
193 grain RWS (for 9.3x72R): 9.25 mm, with one 9.32 mm band
193 grain H&N lead (for 9.3x72R): 9.32 mm

Differences will be in hardness, jacket thickness, maybe bearing surface.

This H&N /Haendler&Natermann lead bullet is fairly new, swaged hard lead with copper coating, specifically made for the 9.3x72R. Seems to work well in my first test loads for the 9.3x57R/360. Maybe you can get it in the US.
Check www.natermann.de/sport/
Bullet code is HN9009 .366-SWC-193 hi

I also tried to use paper-patched .358 bullets. In theory this should work. But I ran into troubles because my rifle seems to have a very tight chamber.

Franz and Eduard Kettner were different companies. I do not now about the relation between Franz and Eduard.
Eduard Kettner, the big mail-order company is in financial troble now.
Surprisingly a Franz Kettner GmbH is still listed in Cologne:
Hohe Strasse 109
50667 Koeln
Phone +49-221-2578904
Fax +49-221-2578982

Fuhrmann

quote:

Originally posted by fuhrmann:
please bear in mind that we Europeans (especially Germans) are not used to hunting with handguns, muzzleloaders, or bow and arrow.
Most hunters use overpowered centerfire rifles for relatively small game.

*Grin*
Nicely put...

Carcano