I hunted Sierra Nevada mountains of Spain last week, and a little problem has occured. Just want your opinion on this, since it's my first hunt outside Norway, except from Africa.

I shot a male ibex, and managed, without being able to explain ecatly how, to wound another small male ibex with the shot.
Three days later it was found dead.

I'm really happy with this, because the worst thing I know during a hunt is to wound an animal not beeing able to find it.

Now I'm faced with another trophy fee. It's not full price, because it was so small, but still 1500 Euro.
Does this seems fair?
I want to take responsibility for my own actions as a hunter, but just wanted your opinion. What is normal procedure?

For me it just seems a bit unfair, since my original ibex was misjudged and quite a bit smaller than discussed with the outfitter.

dont pay there taking the piss,if you hit another animal with the bullet exit shit happens,i presume the beast was not standing directly behind the beast you shot at,
Iam sure if there would have been the slightest worry about hitting another beast your guide should have stopped you taking the shot

Looks like neither of us will get invited to Spain again.

Sounds like a tough position because of the size issue you have with the trophy animal.

But, I would pay the fee.Thinking along the lines that I pulled the trigger,I'm responsible.

Africa would be the same,you bleed it,you own it.

I see you read my thread,and to his credit my outfitter repeatedly asked me if I saw blood on my Fallow.Trying to give me a way out;but I did see blood, and thats the truth.

In the long run;for me the experience will outlive the money spent.

For you;tell everyone there was a time I hunted in Spain,and I took 2 animals with 1 shot!

Good luck and look forward to seeing some photos.....


Dan

Anders,

I'd feel also that you should pay the trophy fee. At the end of the day it is the guy behind the scope that can see and makes the ultimate decision to pull the trigger. If the shot was not clear then it's your responsibility and you've used up one more of the possible trophy allocation available to the outfitter.

With regards to the size of your existing trophy was the fee for this less than you anticipated or was the first animal a flat fee. In my eyes the two problems are seperate issues but of course a basis for some kind of negotiation with the outfitter.

This is one of the reasons why I don't get hung up on the perceived measurement. If it looks good in the scope then I'll tend to pull the trigger on it in this kind of hunt.

Rgds,
FB

Anders,

Trust me, Spain has larger "problems" your's just happens to be parmaount at the moment.

A tough one, for sure. These situations always leave a bitter tatse for all concerned.

While I'm not one to Rock the Boat too much; €1500,- isn't exactly pocket change IMO.

There's two countries where I've had Guides urgently whispering (screeming?) in my ear to "Shoot, Shoot, Shoot!" and Spain happened to be one of them. Personally not only finding such distracting but appears that they don't respect or have the ability to comprehend the compentency of the Hunter's they are guiding, simply interested in personal success not the Client's.

Having said that and not being privy to being present at the "Shot" as it occured other than your brief summary including "without being able to explain ecatly how, to wound another small male ibex with the shot." I'd have to suggest the following:

If the "Shot" occured under the Guides direct supervision and at his insistance or command I'd suggest he may have put you in a position which incurred risks outside of your control & therefore is his liability. I WOULD NOT PAY.

If you took the shot under circumstances where you were 100% in control meaning; you decided how to set-up, identified the target, decided when to tug the trigger or accomplished any or all of the above outside of his direct personal control and wounded a second animal I WOULD PAY considering that you were responsible for the "Shot".

As a direct comparison I guided a Client who, while I had my Binos glued to my face and was whispering to him, "Do not Shoot, it is a Female" was not only suprised to simulatenously hear the report of his Rifle but to realize that while I was concentrated on glassing he had gotten into a rushed shooting position - 'nuff said - in your case can only offer an opinion as I'll never know excatly what occured.

Ugh!

Nevertheless, Waidmansheil on one "smallish" Ibex anyway!

Are you sure that the one they found is the one you had wounded?

DUKie,

That also jumped straight to mind.....somehow managed to omit that in the thread above

WTF-Over?

Unfortunately ~I can see both sides of the argument!

Without wishing to ask you to disclose anything you’re not comfortable with disclosing, by what circumstances did the second animal come to be shot? Line of sight shoot through, bad backstop, heard the shot and charged off a cliff or what?

What proportion of the trophy fee are they charging for the second beast? Does that include some cost of the follow up?

Things like this turn on the circumstances, mainly on whether you want to hunt with that outfitter or his mates again…

Regards,

GH

quote:

Originally posted by Gerry:
That also jumped straight to mind.....somehow managed to omit that in the thread above

Shoot once, charge twice?

Thanks for great feedback guys!
I'll try to explain a bit more what happened.

We were following a small herd of ibex with a big male (around 7 years and appr. 72 cm, according to my guide). The herd were moving, and we tried to cut them off. Doing so made us lose their sight for ten minute or so. Being positioned were we thought they would come, we couldn`t immidiatly see them. We were on a cliff overlooking a valley. My local guide and me in front. My outfitter/guide 15-20m behind. Suddenly my outfitter/guide whispered that he could see the male. I slowly stalked back to him and in leaning over the cliff could see him standing only 100m away looking at us. The outfitter/guide said "There he is. Take him." I got into a steady position. He was standing alone with only one or two other animals visible, but at least 10 meters to the sides. At the shot it seemed like I had hit him, but he kept running for another 50 yards, before stopping again. This time another animal was right in front of him. This animal took a couple of steps, making his shoulder visible. I asked: "Should I take another shot?". "Yes" was the answer.
I remember thinking that I needed to be very careful about the other animal. I most admit that I realized that the second shot might be a bit risky for the other ibex. But on the other hand I might have an already injured ibex, and wanted to end it`s misery. I aimed carefully and at the shot "my" ibex fell right over. The other animals ran away.
Then the local guide saw the big ibex we initially were trying to get moving away.

When we came down at the ibex we could see it was smaller than expected, but still an old ibex of 9 years. The outfitter/guide admitted he thought it was the big one. The one I shot had a beautiful dark cape, only found on old ibex, and in the herd we were following we had only seen one this old.
So it was a mishap. Things like this happens every now and then. And I'm actually happy with my ibex. Not the biggest, but an old one for sure.

Skinning the animal we found only one bullet hole. It seemed I missed my first shot. When we inspected the horns we found a small piece missing. Since the horns are very hard, my outfitter thought this might have been from a shot or something. Not the kind of damage you would see from falling or fighting. He thought it was an older damage, but it might have been from my first shot.

At the place of that second shot I could see blood leading away in another direction. I could not see any blood coming from that first shot, but didn't look to good. When skinning the animal I saw one ibex moving away in the distant. There seemed to be something strange about it's movement.
I told this to the guides, and wanted to have a look. I hate injuring animals. This didn`t happen. We did find some more blood on the way back, and the guides decided that the local guide should have a look with his dog. He did the next day, but couldn't find anything. His dog was quite young and not really trained yet, so they called in another one. I don't know when they searched for him, but five days after my shooting I got an email that they had found it.

Summing up, the injury on the other ibex, might have been from my first shot. Hitting the horn and changing course to antoher animal. Or from that second shot already described.
I think maybe the last, just can`t figure out how. Because the entrywound on my ibex and the position on the other don't match perfectly. But I always get a bit excited when shooting at game, not always remembering all details.

Like some of you says, it's difficult for me to know if they actually found an ibex wounded by me. The skin and a lot of the animal had been eaten already.

But I must be perfectly honest and for me it's no doubt that I actually wounded another one. And mostly this might be my responsibility.

I want to take responsibilty of my own actions. Just trying to avoid beeing screwed.

quote:

Originally posted by Anders:
I want to take responsibilty of my own actions.

Congratulations. This is an attitude you can be proud of.

quote:

Originally posted by Anders:
Just trying to avoid beeing screwed.

Unfortunately in today's world, when money is involved this is something you always have to keep in mind.

Congratulations to your Ibex. They are fascinating animals. Mind posting a picture for us?

Anders,

you have been very clear and consciensious in your way of describing and adresseing this envent that you have become part of.

I for one would try and negotiate a deal in the price for the second Ibex that was wounded, as FB mentioned that animal was a future income for the guide and the outfitter, even more so in some places taking an animal to young or to small can render deductions in numbers for the coming years for the outfitter.

Your attitude towards making good for your self is great and well ment, I am happy to read about it.

The idea or measure as someone stated above, you make it bleed you pay, is a good one, I am sure I will soon enough have to eat my own words but still that is the one way that you or I can feel good about going out for a hunt and not making a recovery on an animal.

Look at it this way, it will cost you, however you can be proud of the fact that you have done right thing and your hunting ethics will be intact.

Best regards Chris

Thanks, Chris! I appreciate hearing that..
I guess the outcome probably will be that I need to spend some extra money, but I guess that's part of the game. And I know for sure that there's no wounded game left behind.

DUK, full report will come soon!

Anders,

Your honesty and desire to make it right are to be commended indeed. I'm not aware of what Ibex trophy fees are right now but is the outfiter making the cape and horns available to you if you are paying the fee? You mentioned that the skin and meat had already been consumed.

Indeed there seems to be a payment to be made but in the big scheme of things it should be negotiable. All you can do is say what do you think your mistake is valued at to you leaving you happy with your cost and meet an agreement with the gentlemean in question.

Good luck with your negotiations.

Sorry to hear about your mishap Anders, know you was looking forward to this trip.
But taking the responsibility the way you do, you can at least stand tall.

The second Ibex, was it to damaged for a mount, or will you have it skull on a shield?
I presume they have taken care of the second one as well... ?

quote:

Originally posted by woodmanDan:
Looks like neither of us will get invited to Spain again.

Sounds like a tough position because of the size issue you have with the trophy animal.

But, I would pay the fee.Thinking along the lines that I pulled the trigger,I'm responsible.

Africa would be the same,you bleed it,you own it.

I see you read my thread,and to his credit my outfitter repeatedly asked me if I saw blood on my Fallow.Trying to give me a way out;but I did see blood, and thats the truth.

In the long run;for me the experience will outlive the money spent.

For you;tell everyone there was a time I hunted in Spain,and I took 2 animals with 1 shot!

Good luck and look forward to seeing some photos.....


Dan

That's right!

They have taken care of the other ibex as well, Arild. So I guess a scull mount next to the bigger fellow will be the order of the day.
Trophies for me are memories, small or big!

Your hunting ethics are indeed intact. I have shot a couple (or more) sloppy shots and shit happens. The situation you described seems like something everyone could have run into. What matters is how you sort this out.

I would pay the fee. I would, however, try to negotiate this somewhat. I would as a last resort if negotiations strand, offer to pay the disputed sum to UNICEF, Doctors Without Borders, or some similar charity - emphasizing that it's not the money that's the matter.

One of the many reasons I follow the European hunts is that the posters are the most ethical of all hunters, anywhere.

Anders, I'm sure that you are a hunter who always does the right thing, even when nobody else is looking.

L2S

Thanks guys!
Shit happens, but one must always try to get out with the ethics intact.
Another surprise came up a couple of days ago. My outfitter said I shouldn't worry. He said he didn't care if I paid or not. According to him, he had lost rights to the hunting area for two years, and the permits was long gone anyway.
This was a combination of good and bad news, I think. If this is only due to this situation, I feel really bad.

I was very interested in this post. I have a hunt for ibex and mouflon booked with Alf of Spain Outfitters in February. Hope all goes well, with no "small problems"....

I think you should enjoy your hunt, I would Not worry. However, European hunting ethic varies (As in other parts of the world) hence in Spain I would very much make up my own mind re shooting a mature animal rather than the first male I would be offered.

I think, from your description, it was down to you since you saw the fresh blood trail and your experience told you it was significant.

Whether it was worth the asking price is another matter and, since you are clearly an ethical person, I would suggest that you make them an offer based upon a fair valuation of its trophy value at the time.

Yes it might have grown into a gold medal in the future but, equally, it might have fallen off a cliff and just made a meal for the griffon vultures....who don't pay at all.

Glad to hear you are still hunting and enjoying the sport. Wadmansheil & Happy New Year to you!

Interesting scenario. But when you finished your hunt, did you complete or sign some form of 'hunting result' which listed what you shot and any other payable services received??

With my groups in Poland and other countries, the client ALWAYS completes a result sheet with the guide at the end of the hunt and counter signs the page showing this. At that point, that's the final record and anything written down has to be paid for. Any animal found later is not payable and anything else not recorded cannot be added later.

Your intentions are honourable but i would not pay for that animal found 3 days later

My suggestion is to talk to a local expert.

Google Camino Real and speak to the proprietor Alvaro Mazon who used to post here as Montero.

Provided there is no conflict of interest he should be able to give you an idea of custom and your outfitter. He is a very keen Ibex hunter too.

1894,

How is Alvaro these days? Are you still in touch?

Pretty tight spot Anders, I know most ethical hunters, based on what you wrote, would feel some type of direction or guidance to make it right, otherwise they would not have guilty feelings. Of course you could just say screw it and pay nothing, but then that doesn't sit well either.

To be fair on the deal, I think I'd call them and just split it 50/50 or in other words, ask if 750- would be acceptable. I think both parties in this case should share. I would think they will accept partial blame and your offefr, and you'll sleep better at night

A few unknowns as we weren't there, but that is my take on it, Waidmannsheil, Dom.

I'd disagree.

Sorry but if it drops dead there and then or is found FRESHLY dead at the same place (or nearby) as you followed up the target animal then yes.

But three days later? Then no. Not at all would I pay except...and this is the "nub" of it...for that blood trail in the other direction.

If there had not been the blood I'd have said that it could as easily have been shot by another. With the blood? Then it is down to you.

And, without being rude, you maybe should not have taken that second shot. Not in the circumstance you described.

So you are I am afraid as liable for it as if you had shot through with it standing immediately behind.

But only for what it was worth then...after all you shoot a pricket on the hill by mistake here you don't pay the fee for a "royal" do you!

Seems VERRY simple to me. You admit you did not have a clear shot. You pay.

Grizz

I would assume Anders wrapped this up two years ago, so I wouldn't worry too much!!!

Thanks rarms, sheesh I feel like a dummy, however I wasn't alone

On the other hand, it sure would be nice to find out how this turned out or ended up? Or maybe not . . .

Posted 18 November 2008 15:40


Oh no! Me too!

Sorry for my late reply guys! Missed out the new posts on my thread.
Yeah, it's all finished now.
I ended up paying 1500 for that second "trophy", which is 50 % of the normal price. I'm quite sure that the animal they found dead after three days is one that I wounded.

At the moment my trophies are at my taxidermist. He's making a wall pedestal of the biggest one, placed on a rock wall with brush, grass and stuff. Somewhere on the wall the horns and scull of that second one will be put. I think it will be a great mount and a great way to remember the beautiful mountains of Spain.
I'll try to remember to update this thread with a picture of the mount.

Happy new year, guys!

anders

that sounds like a perfect mount, i cant wait to see it.

best

peter