Hi All,

I just thought I would post a couple of the pics I have from the black powder day we held last saturday. In reality we were not all using black powder, as it isn't available in all calibres, but we were using old vintage guns.

Here is the team photo during the tea break.



We were 10 guns shooting driven pheasant partridges and duck. The weather was attrocious but we got wrapped up and went out in the wind and rain.

The first drive was next to the yard and we pused the covers from over the road into the wind. It was the first time we had done this drive and the birds curled into the wind and went back like rockets. The only wproblem was that thhey didn't go over the guns!! I ran (ahem..!!) up to the brow of tthe hill to try and cut them off at which point a succession of great birds went over my now empty peg.... Typical!

The second drive was a two and a half acre piece of game cover that we pushed down a hill and over a wodon two sides. The birds were great and most of the guns could not load fast enough with some superb birds seen and shot. It was a great moment after all the risks taken and expense in changing the shoot this year to see the birds getting better and better each week. I managed to sneak 3-4 nice birds out of the drive while Paul next tom me shot a succession of nice singles. I couldn't understand why he was not taking a second bird until after the third drive when I found out that he was using a single barreled gun!! Thus a sort of interaction started where he would shoot the first bird and I'd shoot after him what was left.

Anyway the day went on and we finished up with a very respectable 99 head of game for a selective team that shot very well. We retired for two roast haunches of Venison cooked in the Brinkman from the Buck that chris had shot with Ian the previous week.

Me with latest addition. 1880's 16b hammer sourced through Dig, (Smallbore) at Vintage guns. I can't believe some of the birds I have shot with this little gun (which shoots 28g of 6's)over the last week or so. In fact it is the only gun I'm using to shoot game with these days.



I have some more pics at home that I will post later if I get a chance.

Rgds,
K

Super nice pics and story too.

Your 1880´s guns sure seems to be at home resting ower your shoulder.

Best regards Chris

Chris,

It's very comfy indeed!!!

I'm going through a bit of a purple patch at the moment with the little gun, shooting in the region of 1.5 to 1 on good driven birds, so the picture doesn't probably show quite how tightly I'm holding onto it!!

I think at the moment I'd give up the wife before I gave up that gun!!! (Don't tell her I said that...)


K

Looking good Kiri.

I do covet that Holland. If the wife ever gives you an ultimatum, let me know and I will releive you of the gun for a bad price.

I notice there are a couple of nice 12 bore Purdey Hammer guns in the Holt's catalogue.

I wonder.....

Kiri, what about this coming up at Bonhams?

http://www.bonhams.com/cgi-bin/public.sh/pubweb/publicS...846&iSaleSectionNo=1

It might be worth spending a few quid on this to tidy it up.

Brian,

That was just like the first holland 16b that I ever shot and the reason I ended up with the one I have. I would get a report done on it if I were you though, to make sure all is as it should be and to give you a reliable estimate on the work that needs doing. Dig can do that in advance of the sale viewing and it is £50 worth spending to know exactly what you are bidding on.

Barrel thickness charts are usually quite accurate but depends on how much of a hurry they were in when doing it. Given it is nitro proofed I shoud think it will be OK if it is recent.

This is worth a look though and you know it will do everything you want it to do with no risk of blowing it up at the proof house etc...



Details Here

There are 2 more 16's that I'll be looking at this weekend we hope. A Reilly and a Purdey thumb hole underlever. Not for me but I can post some pictures if you would like to have a look.

Personally I'm not a big fan of the 12bores in this sort of thing as I find the slimmer 16's and 20's far easier on the eye. The biggest problem for me is getting a stock that is long enough for me to shoot with it.

Rgds,
FB

Kiri, just reading again that description, the Holland has 28-3/8" barrels and no choke in either barrel. That would suggest to me a gun that has been shortened?

Given the price mate, I would think there are a few possibilities. The likleyhood is that it was heavily pitted and had a lot of barrel thickness rempved to get rid of the pits, resulting in a lack of choke. Of course I'm no expert and I've asked Dig to chip in as he can probably add something to the discussion more valid than me.

It's exactly the kind of think that the report would save you from buying a dud.

Rgds,
FB

Some makers delivered guns with odd length barrels - H&H were not generally one of them. You would expect 28" 0r 30" on a gun of the period like this. My guess would be that it has been shortened but we'll need to see the gun to be sure. I had an identical H&H 16 only afew nonbers different with 30" tubes.

These guns were built by Scott in Birmingham for H&H. I liked mine - they vary in quality a little but are nicely made guns that are fun to shoot. for a good one expect to pay £2,800-£4,000 retail.

Once you have shot game with a proper gun, you womnt be tempted back to the old foreign o/u lump

quote:

Once you have shot game with a proper gun, you won't be tempted back to the old foreign o/u lump

Not that you would be prejudiced or anything Dig...

I knew that Holland's didn't ake guns with strange length barrels but I was just testing to see if you'd notice it....

FB

An honest answer...please! How does the sidelever on your gun compare to the conventional toplever of "today". Better, worse, the same?

ES,

I have absolutely no problem with it at all. I find under levers a little cumbersome on a hot drive, (even though I've only used them once or twice). But this is fine

The side lever on the small gun is a very natural mechanism. The lack of ejectors was a bigger problem for me to overcome than the opening mechanism.

As it stands the little gun is climbing higher and higher in my estimation the more I use it. As I'm starting to find a rhythm with it I can shoot and reload fairly fast, and if you pick your birds wisely I don't think I'm shooting many less shells in a day than I would do ordinarily.

The only thing if I had to be REALLY picky is that the side lever feels a little springy. From an operating point of view that isn't a problem but I'm scared of pushing it too hard and snapping it!! An unlikely event I'm sure but I'm fairly heavy handed on occasion.

For me the main point to take into account with these guns is the fun you have shooting them. They are so much more natural to shoot than modern manufactured shotguns.

Rgds,
FB

Thank you that is interesting. I know the Jones type underlever and yes, it is terribly slow. I've also tried the Powell push-up top lever but never, on a double gun, the Grant type sidelever.

Sometimes these things fail to become the "norm" because they are more expensive, sometimes because they are more complicated, sometimes because they are not as good as what comes later. Sometimes even because their patent stops others using them and something else becomes the "norm" as its patents have expired.

If you had a choice, say if you were the customer in 18xx or whenever, and you could have specified any lever and cost...on your pictured gun...were no problem what would you choose?

ES,

In all honesty between the top lever and the sidelever pictured I couldn't now make a distinction. I now feel equally fast and natural with both. I am also getting used to the lack of ejectors and don't find myself fumbling to extract and reload the shells.

Functionally, I'd have no preference at all. In fact the sidelever is probably a bit more "romantic" on a vintage gun but that would not have been a concern in 1880.

This season I've picked up no other shotgun for any of my driven shooting bar two pheasants and a duck I shot with Amir and Artemis a couple of weeks back, and I don't intend to shoot with anything else for the rest of the season barring terrible weather or mud.

You should book a space on next years vintage guns day and have a try out with a variety of these guns for fun. In addition it might be an idea to get a team together to shoot in the British SxS championships next year and see if vintage guns would be able to supply the guns at a decent cost. We did it a couple of years ago and it was a lot of fun.

Rgds,
FB

Fallow Buck shot with me on saturday at my modest shoot.
Bag (11 guns) was 59 (4 drives in the morning, then a loooooong lunch ).
FB shot 8 birds for 9 shells and more than one syndicate member complimented him (and also me for my choice of guest!) on his fine shooting.

Was a good day....