A good friend of mine has had some recent unsatisfactory experiences on Fallow Deer...bucks and stags.

He is using .243 at 100 grain. I cannot be more specific as I havn't seen the rounds myself.
Wounded animals that have been very, very difficult to track.
He is a good shot, with decent rifle and good optics.
A different rifle is not really an option.
What do you think??

Some 243 100gr is quite down on velocity and from my own experience moving from an 18" 243 to a 6mm rem running at proper 243 velocity, the 243 needs velocity to kill well.

RWS is as per the advertised speed and works exceedingly well. My gunsmith used the 97gr conepoint on reds for a number of years with success.

Norma is also full speed but has suffered from complete non expansion in the experience of our BDS chair.

I have to say that between my 6mm rem (ie 243) 6.5x55 and 7x57 there is bugger all difference. Blood trails are all a function of how high the hole in the chest is. Halfway or above = no discernable blood trail.

I do appreciate your pals problems. It was just such a spate of tracking problems that made me get a dog for deer..... worth a lot as an aware lung shot fallow is going to run a long way if you're unlucky - the dog is the only answer IMHO.

Iv'e used it on several fallow, from big bucks to young does.
I repute fallow to be tougher than pigs, so I would say that the .243 is a bit on the light side. That said I have not had any problems at all with it, using 95gr ballistic silvertips and gamekings.
One buck was shot quartering away, presenting a shot behind the last rib, it ran about 50meters before piling up.

I have some 95grn X bullets I want to try too, first I'llsee what they do on paper and if I can get an accurate load, but I think that if they will shoot you could handle any European game provided you have the confidence in your weapon.

Even if I shot my first fallow deer using a .243 win, I'm with 1894 that is better to track on a big blood trail, and this mean bigger bullets and/or more penetration.

The most easy blood trail to track for me, has been obtained shooting a f.d.Bull with a 9.3x62

Seriously speaking a 6.5x55 with 139grs bullets is a good recipe for fallow deers. A little exagerating , nothing under.
bye

Gentlemen

My experience is that 270 with 130-140 is about minimum for Fallows to my mind. They actually quite hard and doesn't give up that easy. Better to be over gunned.

243 is a really nice roe deer cartridge and I had great success with it, 100 grain partiton or 95 ballistic tip wotkrs very well.

/ JOHAN

The 243 it's a caliber in which you need to be very careful to pick up the bullet for the intended game , not only in weight also in construction , years ago , a friend bought a nice second hand Krico 243 with two boxes of old Federal 85 grains SP , with the two boxes in two years he kills a dozen of Roe Bucks , all in the spot or not to far , never need to repeat a second shoot , then he bought S&B 100 grains , after a year and half dozen bucks only recovered two , he ask me to test if the rifle scope it�s zeroed , and it�s OK but the though bullet pass the fragile roe without to much damage , he change to 85 and he start to have clean kills , four years ago for my own 243 , I opted forexperience 85 Gr. Bullets for Roe , I choose Sierra GK 85 very accurate , first buck after the shot run maybe 50 meters and collapse , wounds minimal entry and exit about the same a maybe half an inch hole or less , second buck hit at 200 meters behind the shoulder and run almost 1 kms I lost the trophy , as next day we found the carcass with out the head  , high in the lungs , no damage , then I switch to the 85 HPBT Sierra ( long discussed in this forum ) and for the moment and three bucks later I�m very happy with this combo bullet weight and construction , simply when you open the carcass there is a complete destruction of all the organs with massive blood inside , and it�s strong enough to have exit hole , but don�t need any resisitance to start to expand and fragment , and if some meat it�s lost , as Roy Siegfried said my dog it�s happy he like it  , the 243 it�s a nice caliber if you pick up carefully the shots , know where to shot , and with a very expanding bullet IMHO the Barnes X and Nolser Partition are not suited for the small calibers over 270 OK , but under you need quick expansion to have a quick kill .
Daniel

Hi,

Being the one who had the problem which started this thread, I just wanted to say thanks for all your replies.

I have been using Norma 100gr through my .243

All animals were shot in front box, and it seems that the consensus here, (and with a professional stalker friend I've spoken to), has been that the bullet is not expanding.

I'll be changing the ammo straight away, (he reccomends Winchester 100gr) and I'll let you know if I get any better results. Hopefully there will be another chance before the end of the season!!

Thanks again.

FB

Englanders
My wife and I have used the 243 for whitetail deer, and she has used it on Mule deer and Antelope. She has taken many Antelope at 300 to one very long shot at 375 yards. She used a Ruger No1 and a Rem Model 7 with an 18" bbl.We have never had any problems, we always used either the 100gr. Sierra Spz. or the Nosler 95gr. Partition. I found the 243 with these bullets as effective as anything else on these size animals. I only switched her to a 308 for her deer rifle as we got a new lease with wild pigs.

I have no personal experience with Fallow Deer but I do have experience with large whitetails and the 243. Let me clarify what I am calling large whitetails. In Manitoba large bucks routinely field dress in the 250 lb range. It is not uncommon for a real big one dress over 300 lbs.Last fall I took a nice buck that field dressed 272 lbs. The group I hunt with has spent more time tracking deer wounded with 243's than it has tracking deer wounded with all other calibres combined. We simply will not allow anyone to hunt with us with a 243 anymore. They may work just fine on 150 lb deer but they leave a lot to be desired on big whitetails. I suspect the Fallow deer will be similar. Also where is your friend attempting to place his shots? If your friend has no alternative but to use a marginal calibre he had better be using a good bullet such as the Nosler Partion.

I have used the .243 of duiker and Impala with mixed results. I was using a 100 grs Core lokt. I would call it marginal for impala and fine for duiker. My gunsmith uses the 100 Speer Hot Core with great results on deer. However he now uses a .270 Win for most of his hunting and a .338 Mag on Elk. The .243 is fine for animals under 70# is my opinion.

Aleko

[ 04-08-2003, 10:53: Message edited by: Heritage Arms ]

I tested some 95grn X bullets on the weekend in the .243 and was more than pleasantly surprised with the results, I only tried 2 loads though and just 3 shot groups.

With 43 grains of VV N160 it put 2 into the same hole and one about 1cm away.

I use 95 gr Nosler partition in my 243 for roe red and pigs. The results are good, although pigs usually go some 50-100 m after a good shot but there is always an exit and some blood trail to follow. I have also tried 100 gr S&B but the bullet always falls apart resulting in small penetration. Also 105 Geco did not make a penetration but the results were much better than with S&B.

Try shoting the bullets into some dry and wett paper and see if you can see any foult in preformanse. What bullet was it? Norma loads several. Might be a production error or the bullet is meant for higher speeds. You might have shot a longer distanse that you inteded so the bullet slowed down to much to expand.

My grand uncle had this happen to him once while hunting red deer. The bullet never expanded. Had a long and difficult tracking job to find the deer. It easy to see when you are dressing the animal.

Johan

Two words: Nosler Partition.

I agree with Pawel.

Another vote for the Partition.

I think if you go to 100 grain Partitions you will quite pleased with the results.

Another vote for Nosler Partitions.

NP's are sort of magical bullets. They're not meant only for heavy animals as are many 'premium' bullets but for the general run of game. Upon entry, especially in the lighter calibers, the front third doesn't expand . . . it explodes! Little bullet fragments (accompanied by assorted bone bits) fan out through the heart and lungs while the rear two-thirds of the bullet plows on through and out the other side. When I had my old 7x57 the 140 gr. bullet was all that I used and I never lost an animal and didn't track any very far either!

I suspect that the guy with the problem is not a reloader and partition factory rounds may not be an option.

On Norma ammo - they make several different types of bullet for their factory loads. Alaska = rubbish, Vulkan = good, Oryx = first class.

I would buy Norma Oryx factory ammo over Winchester every time. The brass is better quality too IMO.

To Snowman:

About not allowing people to shoot with a 243 i have a remark:

I did most of my deerhunting up to now in Scotland. I mostly used my 270 win WINCHESTER SS Clasic.
To my very surprise the PH STALKER most used caliber was 243 Win. When i mentionned this once and asked if 243 was't a bit on the light side the PH answered: " there is nothing in the world that can kill more than a 243 on deer" It's bullet placement that counts!

So let your customers first shoot a little bit on the range! You 'll see who's able to handle his gun and who's not.

Of Course when we are talking about heavy animals; you better use a 7 mm magnum, 270, 308 etc...but for ordinary deer a 243 will do the job....if you shoot right!

Kind regards from a sunny Belgium!
Dirk Scout

[ 05-29-2003, 13:13: Message edited by: dirk_scout ]

To old sarge:

Yeah THe 7 x 57 = magical caliber!

About 243:
Winchester 100 grains are very good, but the best results i had with Belgian old FN 125 grains ammo.
If you can finfd them; i shot 4 young stags with them and 3 of them dropped on the spot.
Dirk_scout

[ 05-29-2003, 13:22: Message edited by: dirk_scout ]

To: 1894

Re: 243

It is interesting to see the concerns that our European hunting brethern have comparable to here in the USA. Surprised me that American cartridges are used that much over there.

As a 6 mm shooter ( 243 and 6 mm Rem) there is nothing wrong with the caliber, just the bullets that are being loaded. Residing in Oregon where they make Nosler bullets, I have used both their Ballistic Tips and Partitions.

If someone is shooting high velocity the Partition is the best choice. I prefer 95 grainers to 100 because the give you more velocity. 95 and 90 grain ballistic tips actually perform best at velocities under 2800 fps. Over that speed there is too much meat damage for my liking.

I have seen fallow deer in the parks or game preserves here in the US, but don't know there size in the wild. However I have seen and taken deer with a 243 that have weighed in the 250lb class or better. Like the gentleman's PH said in Scotland, it is shot placement. However not all 243 bullets are deer bullets.

You also did not list the distances that you are shooting the game at. If you or he are a handloader, or know of one and you can get Hornady's 100 gr Round Nose over there. With a zero of 3 inches high at 100 yds, you would be dead on at 200 yds. Most deer taken here are at ranges less than that, even in the western US.
A good old Round Nose always will perform, as long as you place the shot where it needs to go.

Don't fall prey to what is common over here. Someone has poor performance from a round, so he blames the caliber and thinks he needs to buy a bigger gun and then his problems are solved. Shot placement still kills more deer than just a bigger caliber.

Some other good loads are Barnes's 85 grain XLC bullet. They are expensive here, so Lord knows what they must cost in Europe. However they will definitely give you both velocity and performance on game.

My favorite load for my 243s ( I own 6 of them)
is a 105 grain Speer SP with 44 grains of Hodgdon H414 I get a velocity of 3250 fps.
Or 47.5 grains of IMR 7828, the same velocity.
A hundred yard zero is still dead on at 200 yrds.
Zeroed 3 inches high at 100, and out to 350 yds, put the cross hairs on a deer and it will hit it if you can hold the rifle steady.

Last season I shot a deer at 300 yds thru a clear cut in the forest. I was lucky enough to have the hood of a pickup to use as a rest.
With a 3x9 Leupold scope in a Ruger 77 rifle, I had the scope on 4x, put the Dot on the animal and fired. It was far enough out I watched it drop in the scope as the recoil came down.
The 90 grain ballistic tip hit right where I aimed and did enough damage that I lost a section of meat as big as my hand on the off shoulder. Next time for the higher velocity I will use the Partition or the Speer 105 grain spitzer.

Too bad we can't just ship some handloaded ammo over to you chaps to shoot come hunting season.

1894, never had much time for anything smaller that a 6.5. I stand corrected.

Richard - Indeed I was suspicious myself until this 6mm rem.

Seafire - 'twas not me with the problem. I use 90gr ballistic tips and find my 6mm rem excellent indeed for our roe deer.

Hi all,

After those couple of incidents I have now tweaked my set up. I ditched the Norma's and am now shooting Sako 90gr. Only shot them at paper so far, but will be out on the foxes regularly before the Fallow open in August.

I did try the Winchester 100gr, as reccomended by my friend, but I found them slightly erratic. The sako, I grouped in an inch at 100yds shooting prone. That will do for me.

All the animals I had a problem with were sub 60-80yds ranges so nothing too far out.

Time will tell, but I have complete faith in the calibre. The rest of the guys shoot more than their share of Fallow each season with Sako .243's and have no trouble.

Rgds,

FB

Dear Seafire,
How does H414 perform with 95g bullets?
Cheers Rob T.

[ 06-21-2003, 02:05: Message edited by: Rob T ]

Robbie,

Excellent. You may also want to consider either the 95 grain partition ( my preference over the 100 since you can get better velocity out of it) or the 90 grain Ballistic Tip if those are available on your side of the pond.

44 grains of H414 will give you 3200fps in a 22 inch barrel, they do in my Rugers and faster in my 24 inch winchester.

Good luck Mate!!

"Beware these loads and veloities;" some are talking 6mm rem and some 243win. Either way 44grains h414 under a 105 grain 6mm bullet is at best dodgy and in a 243win a recipe for disaster.
Preaching to the converted I trust... beware!

Please scratch my posts on this subject. I am fortunate to be able to be in the presence of people who know what performs in my rifles more than I do.

I am also happy to be in the presence of those that know how to criticize a load, hot, fast or slow without probably even trying to work up a load in that powder before they speaketh!

Any knowledgable handloader will work up a load to see how it performs in his rifles while observing for pressure signs. What is offered by others should be used as a potential reference point and reference point only based on what has worked for someone else.

Otherwise, buy a reload manual!

Trans Pond, I can assume that you have worked up loads using a Speer 105 grain bullet, and H 414 powder with a Fed 210 and CCI/LR primers, and personally have referencable experience of which you speak! I do, and If you don't have the experience, why don't you state your reasons for your point of reference.

Because this book here says "blahblahblah...."

If you worry about a load on here people, don't use it. Otherwise I am a little lost on why someone feels the need to give negative opinions without any first hand experience of which they speak.... If you tell me that you worked up a load of H414 in your 243 with 105 grain bullets and had pressure problems or signs at 42 grains etc, then I can appreciate that input.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Fallow Buck:
All the animals I had a problem with were sub 60-80yds ranges so nothing too far out.

So, why not use something nicely effective (but slightly old-fashioned)? I refer to round nosers. I shoot 100gn soft points and round nosers in my .243, slightly preferring the latter at 100 yards or less.

Touch wood...never had a runaway.

Pete:

good choice. My favorite in that environment!

Just so sad all the manufacturers are dropping a lot of RNoses just because few of us buy them anymore.!!

I can see I am in good company!!

to all you doubters...
i stalk with .243 and shoot muntjac,roe and chinese water deer all day long with 100 grain winchester and only once have had a runner if your going to shoot heavy stuff .270 is by far the best alrounder.my accredited witness put me on to .270 when i had finished my dmq2 and i aint looked back i tried 30.06 but even on some red stags i was shooting it was to much gun .270 with .130 grain winchester silvertips if you can get them is about the best round for deer stalking in the uk ive shot a lot while contracting for various estates and not had a complaint yet about carcase damage.
i realise each to their own and thats fair enough but if you are only gonna shoot small species in the uk .243 is a class cliber for that but anything bigger get a .270 you wont be sorry
keep yer powder dry..

I have several clients that swear by the .243 for deer stalking in the UK. I would say bullet choice is paramount in the .243. The triple shock looks pretty good, same with the Jensen bullet. I would think the RWS might be a great option or the SAKO bullet.

Aleko

I have a Tikka 243 which is my Fallow deer rifle and goat culling tool.I reload and use 100gr Hornady interlocks,i have never tried Partitions in 243 because never needed too.Before i started reloading i used Winchester 100gr power points,i have shot Fallow,Reds and one Elk cow with them all one shot kills.I found Norma 100gr a bit hard but they did kill.

I had two big bucks on thursday both with my .243 Ackley shooting the 95grain Hornady SST's. I've shot masses of game with that bullet and have never had a single problem. I think it has accounted for in the region of 150 foxes and 30 deer in the last 16 months, and I think I had one fox which required a second shot.

I have had a 243 a few years ago. I think it is a capable cartridge to take a fallow deer, but you have no margin for error. You have to use premium bullets (nosler partion ...), and to point very accurately. The cartridge is very wind sensitive and the energy it has is scarce, at long range, so it is limited to medium range shoots. I have taken many deers and boars with it, but I have wounded some game too. So I don't recommend a 243 for fallow deer hunting and bigger animals, it's safer to take more powerful cartridge (a 7x57 or bigger) for this kind of game.

85 grain sierra 1530 hpbt is bullet of choice. The ft/lb is better than the 100grain bullets.
These bullets are good, accurate , consistent and tis only when I anticipate occasional Red stag I choose a 308 over the 243.
Federal premium uses this bullet choice. Use the same set up for fox and 80% of deer, including fallow bucks.

Hi all,

Since this thread started due to the problems I had with the Norma 100gr I switched to the Sako 90gr gamepoint factories.

I've shot 2-3 dozen fallow with it and haven't lost a deer to date and it does the business on the foxes too.

I must admit to using the 308 mostly these days just because I can only use one rifle at a time and I find I save more meat with the 168gr TSX'x than the light fast 243 rounds.

As far as killing ability is concerned the 243 is the business.

Has anyone shot the Barnes XLC in 243? there is a 95gr bullet whereas in TSX the biggest is 85gr.

Thanks
FB

I have had a similar problem to your in the past myself and was just about to recommend that you switch to a lighter faster bullet. All the fallows that I’ve hunted have been in the 100 lbs range dressed and I've noted how thin their skin and bone structure is. Unless you hit the shoulder, it is hard to get one of the better built bullets to open up and they will punch small holes through both sides leaving little blood to trail.

I found this out a number of years ago whilst hunting with my brother. We both had .264 Win Mags. I was using the 140 grain Sierra (loaded to a bit over 3100 fps) while my brother was using the factory 100 grain Winchester ammunition. I was punching little holes through them even at close range. The exit hole looked to have little or no expansion. My brother on the other hand was having spectacular kills with great expansion. The exit holes were large when there was any and other times the bullet was recovered under the skin on the far side showing perfect mushrooming.

This exercise has shown me that you must match your bullet type to your game animal. A fallow is not an elk so a tough deep driving bullet may actually give worse performance on smaller game.