Whilst "talking "**ap" the other night we got on to the sticky subject of what is the best chambering for UK deer stalking? tiss for all species of deer and for woodland or hill and high seat, can be obsolete or one considered not suitable, factory or home fed doesn`t matter BUT can only have 1 of each!!.
This i think is going to be fun!
My choice would be:-
Woodland------ 41 REM mag (in a Marlin lever action)
Wood/hill------ 6.5 swede 140g NOS Part
Dave

If you had"nt said hill stalking I would have said .243. The only time 243 is on the small end is for rutting hill stags, and even then I"ve still used it.
Because here in Northern Ireland we have a .243 cal/100 grain bullet minimum, I have just used this combo for everything. The only deer I have"nt shot are CWD, and I want one to "make the whole set"!
If you shoot a deer in the heart/lungs it makes little difference what the calibre is.
As for external balistics, the 243 is pretty flat.
This is all my own personal bias. If I was"nt a 243 nut, I would be using a 6.5+55 for that little extra weight and the fantastic balistics.
good shooting

For all UK species AND if you homeload just got to love the 7mm-08....

Great choice of bullets, inherantly accurate, low recoil, can utilise a short barrel, short action....what is not to like??

But it is accuracy that kills cleanly!!!

I am giving serious thought to dropping the 270win as my "do-it-all" in favour of a 260rem in a synthetic moderated rifle just now. Max barrel length 20".

I had this problem recently: new to shooting and first ever rifle with no particular interest in having more than one. In the end I decided on .308 in a pastic stock, fairly short barrel, threaded for a moderator. I expect all my shooting at deer to be done in Scotland.

In the end I made the decision based upon practical boring things such as availability of ammo, availability of cheap mil surplus ammo to get lots of practise. suitability for all situations if maybe a bit OTT for some and that they are simply as common as muck. I don't reload and don't have any intention of starting.

Now I'm sure as I gain more experience other things will catch my eye and with getting to shoot more and different rifles I might even end up preferring something other than the 308 but on the other hand I can't see me ever thinking that the 308 was a bad decision. Boring maybe, but probably suitable for everything I will ever need it for.

So, my hope is that the 308 ends up like an old Leeda fly rod I have. It is an 11 foot 6 or 7 weight and while it isn't perfect for every day it is possible to use it every day to no significant disadvantage on the same hills I intend to chase the deer on. Keep your fingers crossed for me :-)

If you handload then, actually, 280 Remington is probably THE best calibre for UK. Or of you use factory cartridges. But will you ever see one? Sadly the .270 got there first!

Ditto, if you hadload, or for factory cartridges, the 6mm Remington - aka 244 Remington - is about SECOND BEST. But the .243 got there first!

It is odd that the two best cartridges are Remington be we have to make do with the vastly inferior Winchester offerings. 270? Bastard bullet size, but at least you know that every .277" bullet you buy is "optimised" for the velocity range of the case which you can't say about every 7mm or .300 (.308) calibre bullet. .243? A good "varmint" cartridge that happens to be used for deer...neck too short...loaded to its limit w/100 grain...etc., etc.

Actually and I don't think I would have the confidence .257 Roberts would offer good trajectory, light recoil and other advantages.

Until I can get a .280 Remington and .244 Remington in a FIVE SHOT magazine capacity WITH IRON SIGHTS FITTED and 24" BARREL...I'll stick with my BRNO ZKKs in .270 and .243.

Indeed some might argue that 7 x 57 aka .275 Rigby with the 140 grain "pill" is a medicine that takes some beating for what it offers.

So for me, presently, 270 Winchester w/140 grain "pill" downloaded to a genuine just over 2,800 fps from my 23.5" barrel.

ES

Which 140gn bullet do you use in your .270 ?

Rgds Ian

quote:

Originally posted by IanF:
ES

Which 140gn bullet do you use in your .270 ?

Rgds Ian

Hornady BTSP 140gn Interlock. I would prefer a flat base style, but one must use what one can get! I'd like to try Nosler partition which are available also in that weight.

7x64Breneke

But, but...it's German!
And although some gunshops in Scotland might stock it is is actually quite hard to find here...and expensive! Twice the price for empty cases compared to .270 or .280).

A 6.5X55 Swede will do it all with ease.

John

They will all do the trick, but I like the .270.

Flat shooting, hard hitting and the recoil is really not as bad as some would have you believe.

What ever fits you, balances well, has a good scope in good mounts with a clean breaking and consistant trigger.

To me calibre comes about dead last. But it would be a 6.5x55.

Seems to me that the 6.5s have alot of followers, coincidence? maybe not.
come on fellas keep them coming

6.5x55 with a 120gr or 140gr soft point. no need for big silly guns for what is shot in the UK

Probably boring but the .270 or .308 for a do it all calibre in the Uk without getting into "non mainstream" calibres.

My preference would be the .308 as a do it all. A brilliantly efficient cartridge.

The biggest problem I"ve had with calbre selection was when I had Roe and Red on the same ground. I"d still rather shoot a Red with the 243 than a Roe with the 308! My 308 rarely sees the light of day, as I just don"t feel the need for it most of the time.
good shooting

.270 Winchester was the choice of the keeper I stalked with in Scotland.

Any cartridge 30-06 or smaller, which includes the 6.5x55 and 7x64 Bren. I can't imagine the need for any magnum, unless you want one. Lou

41 Magnum??
Could you find a much more difficult rifle to feed??
Still, it would be fun!

Other than your suppressor applications I don't see what the difference is whether we are talking UK or Oz. my vote goes to:
280 Rem. for general use; and
35 Rem for woods and other fun applications (also hard to feed)

I have not been impressed with the effectiveness of pistol calibers on large game – this is not to say that they do not work.

After over 25 years of stalking and managing large areas in Scotland, the 270 still takes some beating.

But for me on hinds in the winter my ruger model 77, 25.06 in stainless and moderated is the rifle and calibre I use the most.

I went out on friday past, with a twofold plan for the morning. I wanted to get a morning stalk, and I wanted to re-zero my 308 without the suppressor. Rather than carry 2 rifles, or leave one in the car, I left the 243 at home and just brought the 308(using 150 gr interlocs)
After an hour and a half in the rain, I was surprised to see about 8 Fallow slipping along the edge of the canopy. I hit a nice big doe in the heart/lungs(bit far forward/clipped bone on the leg as she was walking when I shot). She reared over backwards and stayed down. The kid ran in a circle and stopped, so it got hit in the head.
When I started skinning the doe, I knew things were bad straight away.I found bruising as soom as I uncovered ribs, and it just got worse. When I skinned the shoulder, most of the shoulder came away with the skin. The shoulders and chest looked like blackcurrant jam. The 308 is going in the attic cabinet tonight, and it"s going to stay there. The 243 is ample, and it does a lot less meat damage. I love my dog, but he does"nt need fed on venison!
good shooting.

Hi Brass thief

Its not the caliber that is causing all the meat damage but most likely bullet choice/shot placement for the 308. May I ask what you are using?
I hunt using my 7x64 Brenneke and this is the kind of damage I get routinely if I dont break leg bones.
Once you start to clip bone then the bullet can shatter or tumble and exit wounds expand dramatically


Having said that I have 2x308 but for Scotland I need a flatter shooting rifle as most hill stalking takes place at 200m +.

Mark

I accept that hitting bone makes a huge difference, flattening the bullet much quicker.
Having said that, the 308 consistently bruises more meat than the 243, regardless of what bullets I use. I have never shot a deer with the 243 and lost it, and I"m convinced the 243 is enough for anything other than Red stags.(at longer ranges)
Other stalkers may find themselves taking much longer shots(the terrain I am in usually dictates avereage 50-150 mtr shots) and they may feel the need for a little more, but if the majority of shots are at less than 150 mtrs(which I believe would apply across the UK), then the 270 is too much for me, as are any of the 30"s.
I know everyone has their own "pet cartridge",
mine just happens to be the minimum legal requirement!
good shooting

Brass Thief, if you fell owergunned with the 308 Win try a bullet that will stay together.

Barnes, Bitterrot, A-frame, TBBC, Rhino, woodleigh are all some bullets that will do a better job at staying together in game, bones or no bones.

Interlocks are just not up to the task at hand.

I am curios to what you feed your 243 Win, partly cause I am interested in one my self and partly cause I feel it´s speed/bullet choice/bullet placement that bruises not a caliber as such.

Best regards Chris

Mark, that is a beautiful wound! Just about perfect.
Chris, this will sound unfair, but I am using Speer grand slam 100 gr in my 243. I started using them last year when I was getting ready to go to Arran to shoot Reds. I shot a stag here before I went to Arran and the bullet came apart(interloc) on impact with the deer"s skull and did"nt penetrate(range 247 mtrs, I was trying to hit it in the neck!)
I was using grand slam 150"s in the 308 before that, and Remington coreloct factory before I was handloading.
Having said all that, I still find that Gamekings, and Interlocs still do less damage in the 243 than they do in the 308, but at similar speeds the 308 will always have more energy with a 150gr than a 243 with a 100 gr.
Yes, shot placemant and impact velocity(dictated by range rather than calibre) have more effect, but the topic was calibre only. We do get too hung up on calibres, it is an emotive subject where everyone has entrenched views, espousing their fav calibre like the only way of salvation!
I love my 243, but fair play to anyone who wants more gun!(I"m looking at buying a K Hornet, might use that for Fallow instead!
good shooting

Interesting comments about the Hornady Interlocks.

I find them a bit too much of a good thing. I have found the 225 grain interlocks in my .338-06 behave more like a solid - penciling on red hinds.

I suspect the bullet is too tough for the reduced velocity of the .338-06 versus the .338 Win Mag at ranges of 150 - 200 yards.

I am going over to Barnes TSX.

Brass Thief,

there is nothing wrong with your call, a bit slanted in the comparasion between bullet types but hey, that´s alright.

This season I have been using 150 grain SGK for all my roedeer, 3 in all. I know not a whole lot.

All shots have been lunge shots, two high and one low, dubbling as a hears shot to.

No one of my shots hit shoulderbone or any other bone exept ribs, I belive I lost no more than 200 grams of meat on any of them.

That being my experience I could state that this is the one magic bullet, but I would have to hit myself hard over the head for thinking so.

Others have found that shoulder shots with these bullets gets messy, as expected.

Hence I like the SGK for there precision and ease of expansion but not for shoulder shots.

Using a 22 K-hornet is allowed on roedeer in Sweden, but not anything larger, a 22 hornet is not, don´t quite have enough speed to make the required energy level.

I would feel severly undergunned with a 22 K-Hornet for both roedeer and fallow, however I belive that people that do use them know what they are doing.

I belive that a lot of my opinion in this matter has been guided by the use of 6,5x55 for moose hunting, every year 10 of thousands of moose are shot in Scandinavia and I belive that half of them expire with several 6,5 mm holes in them.

The 6,5 is great, high SD good BC, slow, wont blow up bullets, low recoil,

but also poor report in game when hit, I have seen a lagre moose hit 5 times with a 6,5x55 4 hits where good lung hits, the last round hit a leg and made the moose fall over, sure it was dead on its feet but still.

I like a bit more authority then so on moose, I use 9,3 bullets from a x62 or 74R.

So after a lenghty explanation, I hope I haven´t offended any one that is why I prefere a 308 Win for all my intermediate sized game.


To answer the original q of this tread for a all for one deal I would get a Blaser R93 in 6,5x55 for easy of use, moderated and a 45 blaser for the short and quick stuff.

Should I stay with my sako, I would get a 366-barrel for it and have a switch barrel system in 308 Win and 9,3-08 Win just for laughs.

Best regards Chris

Interesting. I would suggest that the 150gr 30cal are a bit light for calibre and maybe a bit more fragile for it.

I shoot 140gr interlocks over a moderate charge in my 270win. I was down in Wicklow stalking Sika a few weeks ago, the stalker was a bit critical of my load as it did not cause enough damage on behind the shoulder shots at around 180-200m. He would prefer 130gr BT's at maximum velocity in a 270. He does not care about damage to the front quarters.

The 100grainers in a .243 are going to be similar to the 270 / 140gr - on the heavy for calibre end of the spectrum.

All good points, and before anyone jumps in to point it out, I"m joking about the Hornet as it"s not deer legal anywhere in the UK.
I"m going to invent a rifle with a dial on the side that you can turn from "stun" to "mangle" as req"d.
There"s no single cal/bullet that you can use to neatly kill a Roe at 50 mtrs and still have the authority to grass an 18 stone stag at 300 mtrs. It"s asking two conflicting things from one bullet and calibre.
good shooting

BT, you are so right, however, I do belive that the TSX bullets are a close call to your dial thingie, they work at both short and long ranges.

Clean kills, perhaps a bit slow at times.

I just wished my barrel would shoot with then, but it doesn´t 5 rnds @ 100 meters are just about 40-45 mm all the time, that just will not work in my book.

To the rest, to each his own, when using something one trust, the hunt will be more succesfull.

Best regards Chris

quote:

Originally posted by brass thief:
All good points, and before anyone jumps in to point it out, I"m joking about the Hornet as it"s not deer legal anywhere in the UK.
I"m going to invent a rifle with a dial on the side that you can turn from "stun" to "mangle" as req"d.
There"s no single cal/bullet that you can use to neatly kill a Roe at 50 mtrs and still have the authority to grass an 18 stone stag at 300 mtrs. It"s asking two conflicting things from one bullet and calibre.
good shooting

I thought that the Nosler Partition was meant to be such a "magic bullet" in that it would expand, but only as far as the divide. So that at the high velocities associated with a close range hit it would not be too violent.

I have heard it said...regarding the 338-06 problem...that one advantage of the 270 is that as it is the only cartrtridge in that calibre that all bullets are made for it are "optimum" for the cartridge. Unlike .300 which must run the range from .30 Remington, .30 Savage, .308, .300 Holland, .308 Norma Magnum and up through .300 Winchester Magnum to .30-338 so any .300 bullet is a "jack of all trades".

quote:

Originally posted by MarkH:
Hi Brass thief

Its not the caliber that is causing all the meat damage but most likely bullet choice/shot placement for the 308. May I ask what you are using?


Mark

Well I'm in agreement with Brass on this. Last Friday I shot a fallow pricket at 200yards with my 30-06 shooting 150gr hornady interbonds (MV 2,800fps so 308 performance) one shot behind the shoulder.

One of the rare deer I skin it was an absolute train wreck, entire shoulder blood shot underneath as well as the entire rib cage - never seen anything like it. The shoulder was not hit.

One sunny day doth not a summer make but it's been my experience that bigger bullets make more mess and that the 243's reputation as a meat wrecker is largely not deserved.

Anyways I would suggest that the 6.5x55 with 125gr partition is about the nearest you can get to something that will kill roe at 50yards with not too much damage and a stag at 300yards. I did just this in seperate trips with that load. The stag was a bit less than 18stone and the range only 285yds. It went 10 steps.

Whatever the magic caliber is....don't tell the coppers or they will think that is the only one people should be allowed to keep!

I have a theory about blood shot meat and heamatoma based on my medical experience.

1. If you shoot a dead deer anywhere with whatever caliber you wont get a heamatoma as the poor beast cant pump any blood into the tissue.

2.If on the other hand you shoot a living animal in an area where the fascia and tissue space is quite loose then the heart will pump lots of blood into that space.Especially if it runs a bit.

Therefore I conclude that the amount of bloodshot meat depends on how long the animal heart kept beating before it expired and the damage at the site of the exit wound creating a space to bleed into.
A 243 will have less retained energy on exit than a 308 and therefore create less soft tissue trauma round the exit wound with like for like bullets quality hunting bullets.
A 243 becomes a meat recker when varmint ballistic tips are used and the majority of the damage is then on the entrance side IMHO and that even with a bang/flop scenario the beast does not die quite as cleanly.
THe reason to use a 308 is to give you a larger margin of leathality on a beast not preserve meat.

Mark

I would agree with that, esp as I know a guy who swears by 95 gr SST"s in the 243(he does"nt care about meat damage!)
One man"s ruined carcase is another man"s perfect "bang flop". Some people will see a deer that looks like it stood on a mine and say "wow, cool!", but I bet if you show it to a game dealer he won"t say that!
good shooting

Mark H, your theories and observations are very close to my own observations - pity someone doesn't start a new thread on calibres, bullets, velocities and meat damage. Maybe I will when I have a bit more time.

With the snow expected better get my gear ready for some fox tracking!!!

I would vote for 30/06 as the best round for UK given the variety of bullet weights and size of the deer.

I haven't shot a .270 yet,but I am told the noise it makes is quite loud and causes flinch in many or it's a close second.

How would you gentlemen rate the .275 Rigby as an all round deer calibre for UK.Thanks.

Best-
Locksley,R.

zzWOP
41 mag isnt a prob to load, no differant to any staight wall cartridge anyway and performance on game within 75yrds is stunning and that includes pigs as well.
Brass thief
Have you tried 180grns in your 308? i had a 308 once and i had terrific results with them, some said bullet weight was to much but at about 2.500 they were great and little meat damage as well.
I generally dont judge people but you posted the classic reason why neck/head shots are a BAD idea at long rang whats wrong with the bigger area of the heart and lungs?.
Husq
3 years ago i was offered a some of money for my CZ 22k hornet that i couldnt turn down and have regretted it since, im playing with another 22 at the moment but once im done i shall have another for shaw.
It seems some of the post so far are going the same way as what we had in the pub in that lighter for cal bullets are being used and trying to get the most FPS they can from them, IMHO this is wrong for the size of game we have in this country, firstly most shots are well within 200yrds (most) so ANY deer legal cal will sufice, will a deer tell the differance of an extra 100/200 fps from any given caliber that is shot with good shot placement NO.IT is our belief that we are picking up bad habits from our friends across the water, and who may only get to shot 1 deer a year and in a very short season we have the luxury of long seasons and open bags so we can get practical experiences that the americans can only dream about.i personaly shot a 6.5 swede with 140`s i have a 243 and shot NOS partions in that and am getting a 257 bob which will shot 120g NOS partions this will i think cover me for all my shotting in this country and overseas including my annual Bear hunting.
Thanks for the input and please keep them coming.

I belive BS are on the right track regarding bullet weight.
I have found that the 165 gr bullet shines in 308 Win. The plain jane Hornady works very good on roe at least, and without bloodshot meat.
Usually exellent accuracy as well.
I have the same experience with 150 gr bullets in 270 Win.