OK, you are both clearly experienced and entitled to your opinions!
Nitro- It takes balls to talk about the messy ones and not just dwell on the 1 shot drops like most of us do! Many people just shoot once than take an age to finish a beast off, I agree that 'bullets are cheap, life is expensive'. On the other hand, these experiences are NOT what a typical THS will do to a kudu/deer. There are a couple video's of Saeed dropping large game with one shot up the spout. It is effective and humane if done right. Similarly the .222 is effective and humane if used right. Highlander only uses it on roe deer I assume as it is illegal for red deer and it is more than enough for an animal weighing around 20kgs soaking wet (especially in the highlands).
The bottom line is different mentalities are necessary in different hunting environments. Someone with many chances can afford to pick shots and hunt with a .222....save up to go to Africa and you will find it necessary to take harder angles (note: harder NOT irresponsible shots) to bag some pressured and wary antelope species!

The reason I mentioned the numbers was to point out the examples represented about 0.4% of animals shot.

My reason for asking you some questions was not to compare your numbers vs mine, but to see if this discussion was above the armchair theorectical level. That was not answered.

Do you really take neck shots on red deer with a .222 ???!!! (ie my question on what shot is used with the .222 was animals larger than roe deer). That is definitely something I would not do. I imagine you are referring to the lightly built roe.

Anyway, this is way too much time to spend discussing THS so I'm signing off the thread.

Since no one else has, I'll ask:

That the hell is a "Texas Heart Shot?"

roebuck222,

Welcome to the forum.

There are many hunting situation, where one only gets to see the rear end of an animal.

And if you are using a decent caliber, with a decent bullet, there is absolutely nothing unethical about using this shot.

In Africa, we hunt in some pretty thick bush. And one soon gets to hear the animal moving without seeing it.

I have shot quite a few animals taking advantage of this shot, and none of them took more than a couple of steps.

Here is an example.

We followed this bull for several hours one day, eventually he joined with a herd, so we stopped our chase.

A couple fo days later, we saw his tracks again, and we followed him. And as soon as I saw him tailing it deep into the bush, I shot him.

Saeed,

Any chance of a photo of the end the food goes into?

As you seem to have used this shot a few times what do you think is the margin for error? I suppose if you are high you touch the spine and the beast drops in its tracks, and if you are a little low, you miss the lungs but hit the heart more directly. Have you ever had a beast hit in the hams?

I'd say it is horses for courses and the marksmaship is the same if you hit a 3" target on an animals neck or it's arse.
Personally I wouldn't use it on Deer in the UK as the p*ss taking I'd get from my mates would not be worth the beast...

Incidentally I believe the broadside/rear shot through the back legs is a classic shot to anchor a charging lion according to the literature I have read. Does being on the pointy end move the goalposts??? I think so
I suppose you would have to be the back up to the "chargee" to have a view at the rear end...

Ta muchly,

FB

Just to chime in some. I think ethics are different. From what I have read, many European hunters, more probably on the Continent don't think anything about shooting deer or boar by moonlight using big, high-powered scopes. In Texas, anything shot more than 30 minutes after sunset warrants a citation. There is also no longer any deer hunting with dogs. So it's probably just different ethics rather than more or better.

As to the THS, I have been giving this much thought lately. If I was just normal hunting (like does or feral hogs), I don't think I would take this shot. The closest I came was one time I shot a deer using my weak hand and missed, though I didn't know it at the time, and he ran off about 15 yards then stopped and looked back at about a 3/4 angle (a very young and stupid deer) whereupon a 12 ga. slug took him straight through to the opposite shoulder (now with the gun in the "right" hand). He appeared to actually be jerked to the ground like the hammer of Thor had hit him. The slug went in under the spine and exited between the ribs and the shoulder - the was almost no wasted meat at all. No suffering at all. I think the first shot was low because of how close he was, the steep angle, and the gun being in my left hand.

Today, I am not quite so eager for the kill on average deer. However, after some serious thinking I have come to the conclusion that the THS is applicable in some situations. For instance, any of the larger species that I hope to hunt in Africa (2008 or bust), Kudu and/or buffalo, I intend to have the catridge (.375 H&H) and bullet (haven't decide yet - probably Barnes X or Failsafe) to shoot completely through from any angle while transecting the heart/lungs/liver. Same can be said for any whitetail north of 125 B&C points, big trophy elk if I ever get the chance, or trophy Alaskan moose (which I intend to hunt in 2006). I think when that "trophy of a lifetime" presents itself, it is going to be shot ASAP. No dallying around waiting for that "perfect" broadside shot. From what I hear and read if that big 6x6 bull elk senses you he is darn sure not going to stop after a bit and look back, but is more likely to keep going over the next mountain. And if I've paid $10k for the chance, I don't want pass up an effective shot just because its not the "best" shot. I'd turn down a running broadside shot long before a walking away THS, but I just do not feel confident with running shots.

Failure to use the Texas heart shot or(redneck brain shot) will result in fewer steaks at the end of a 12 deer limit season. Where we hunt brush can be thick, feilds can be longshots,point is you take what you can get or get nothing. The base of the tail,hips,spine all will work. Meat damage can go either way. Also on that rare shot (Trophy size),meat damage is good as the old ones are usually tough to eat anyway. Happy Hunting Ben.

This bull staggered and dropped within 5 yards from where he was hit.

The bullet was lodged in his right shoulder.

With bullets like the Barnes X and our own Walterhog, I have absolutely no hesitation in using this shot on an animal.

Here is another set of photos of the penetration of the Walterhog bullets.





When I used to hunt with a 270 Ackley, my PH used to say "wait for him to give you a better angle for your shot" whenever we are hunting.

After he saw how these bullets work, he stopped saying that. Instead, on several occasions he would say "shoot him up the arse!"

The advantage of using this shot in Africa is someone else gets to do the clean-up job.

Been watching this thread for a few days now, and I am glad to see its stayed reasonable civil.



Killing shot or not, I its not a shot I would use here in the UK unless the animal was wounded, in fact it goes against the grain full stop. But there again so does trying to drive a bullet through the guts to reach the vitals if the animal is quartering away from you.... It is definately an issue of "respect" as given suitable ammo driven at a suitable speed with proper shot placement, both types of shots are certainly lethal.



I think this attitude would be common across 90% of the stalkers in the UK and as already said it, the THS would be recieved with a very frosty reception if done in front of the Professional Stalker.



There is nothing snobbish about this approach, just the way we do things. I realise things are done differently in Africa, but I am not sure I would feel comfortable with myself taking a trophy that way and at the end of the day thats what this is, a matter of personal choice ect



Regards,



Pete

I deer hunt every year, and many of the people that I hunt with don't get a deer. The reason is they think too much and haven�t practiced enough. If the deer is running away from me I will shoot at the back of the neck or head. Many seasons I only had one opportunity to shoot a deer, and I have never had to shoot the same animal more than once to kill it. I have seen two deer shot with a 7mag using Nosler partition bullets (My friend reloads them) in the chest and came out the back leg near the arse the only difference was that most of the damage was done in the front. The first deer I shot was in the eye looking at me with a 30-06 at 25yrds. We owe it to the animals that we hunt to make it a one shot kill. I wouldn�t shoot an animal in the arse because the hind quarters are where the best steaks are and I wouldn�t want them to taste like rectum fillets.
But different strokes for different folks.

Swede44mag

NitroX, you are right. I think I will be much more picky with the first shot on a buffalo, and I am sure the PH, if he's a good one, will insist on it. Once a buff starts going after the first, I will probably keep shooting until the PH says stop, no matter the angle. Buffalo would scare me wounded . On anything lesser than eland (which I'm not really interested in anyway), I think the H&H should fully penetrate from most any angle - with proper bullets of course.

I have had this situation present itself to me several times.

I have not had a problem with taking a shot like that, if I had confidence that the bullet would penetrate the length of the deer. However, I would not take a shot like that, as I do not want to deal with the internal mess when the deer is field cleaned.

What I have done in that instant with the animal heading away from me is to take a shot, over the animals tail waving in the air. In thought, I am either going to hit it in the back or spine as it's body is seesawing up and down as it runs, hit it in the back of the neck, or just miss the animal because of the narrowness of the target.

I have taken 3 shots like this in my hunting career. All were under 125 yds, and I was using a scope on two and open sites on one.

The first shot was from a 444 Marlin, and the bullet cut the spine in half just above the stomach and went into the deer's lungs. Of course it went down instantly. This was with open sites and the distance was 80 yards.

The other two have been Oregon blacktail deer. Both times this was with a 22/250 rifle, with a 70 grain Speer SemiPointed Bullet ( handloaded). Both times the bullet hit the deer in the spine in the back of its neck. Both times the deer went down instantly.

This has been told to me that I am full of BS but I used my window of opportunity as above the deer's rear tail, and below his antlers. That should give a window of opportunity of 10 inches to 12 inches. ( Although not a wide one).

Considering the deer in the USA are 14 to 18 inches from back bone to chest bone, this is no less of a target at 100 to 150 yrds, as is a deer broadside at 200 yds.

The positive thing is that if you miss the deer, it is a clean miss. If you do hit it, because of the narrow angle here, it will result in a terminal wound. Either the back of the neck, or the backbone area, and since it is heading away from you, the bullet will head toward the lungs and heart.

After shooting smaller targets such as squirrels etc, this target actually is quite large enough. I think more hunters could do if they tried. It sure is a lot less mess than the TX Heart Shot scenario.

Cheers and Good shooting
seafire

A couple of years ago some German and Austrian friends and I went on a weeks walked up warthog shooting in RSA. Without getting out the game book and checking I think we must have toasted the best part of 75 warthog in five days and about 25 head of other plains game. Not normally my cup of tea, but I have to admit to a couple of raking gut shots of running hogs. Folded them like rabbits. And the guys who worked in the skinning shed were working seriously long hours that week, and were grateful for the work and meat.



I think it is slightly hypocritical to have no qualms at shooting a rat/rabbit/fox up the arse, but have reservations about shooting deer in the same manner.



That said, I would not shoot any stalked deer with a THS, if I couldn't stalk to a better position then I'd leave it for another day. But that is the joy of hunting in the UK, with our year-long seasons there is no time pressure and 99% of the pleasure for me is in the challange of the stalk.



Driven deer in Europe is another story. You get a couple of seconds and you have th whack it through the boiler by any route available. It is no less skillful and a lot of fun too.

Wow, 75 warthogs is a very impressive bag! I always wish I could try sticking a warthog off a horse like Lord Delamere used to in Kenya...
As for the 'dirty work' Africa is a place where nature isn't considered 'disgusting' (yet) and the contents of an animal are just like an apple core that is removed to get to the nyama! No shame in manual labour.

The Texas heart shot is a joke - it is when a novice hunter shoots a deer in the rear end or in the guts. I think you are all making a lot bigger deal out of this that it is - it is a joke and a way of chiding an inept hunter into being a better shot.

Some of the good hunters I hunt with in Texas refer to a Texas Heart Shot as a neck shot and use the term as a compliment.

Take no offence and do not take this for anything other than a joke.

Lacking lackies, texas heart shots are like mumps. One go around is about all you need to cure you.
Texas Heart Shots are best taken on cold, windy days.

We have a lot of similar threads within the US. The folks east of the big river want to tell the westerners how to hunt and vice versa. Seldom does it work.

Hey dogcat, The buffalo posted above clearly didn't get the joke!

Wow, what a picture! The Texas heart shot on buffalo (caped variety and subspecies to the American variety) is brave indeed considering it was a .500 Express Something. Texans don't have much experience on anything bigger than a whitetail deer, so I think someone is applying the term to a place and time it is not appropriate. In other words - using the term out of context. Texans in general hunt deer with a pick up , then use a gun to finish them off.

Now, if it were a French soldier shot in the rear - we would consider that a normal wound for a Frenchman as that is the only part of his anatomy that is usually seen by the enemy - except for hands up in the air.

I will reconsider the Texas Heart Shot when the guy that wrote "The Perfect Shot" puts pictures in the book of what part of the rear to shoot at.

Enjoy the joke!!!