Hi Guys

You might find this interesting. I shot a seemingly 100% healthy normal button buck on Saturday night up in Scotland at about 8.30 in the evening. Broadside lung shot at 75m with my 7x64. Young buck goes down like a sack of potatoes. When I got to the carcass I thought "Hey that shot was a bit forward" until I also noticed it was not bleeding.

THe gralloch was difficult as everything seemed a little out of place inside and the stomach had been clipped. Anyway no time for CSI Dalbeattie back to the cabin I go.
On dressing the roe out there was a large healed hole in the right side and the lung had collapsed and adhered to the chest wall the left lung was fine but there was a distict dent in the ribs on that side as well.


The wound cavity contained a well defined cyst full of a cream cheese but not granular more like Primula, not smell of infection either. I have seen this before on a healthy fallow doe with a penetrating injury to the back leg. Anyway NOT TB IMHO. I will post a pic later.
I assume someone took a crack at the buck in the Autumn with a small calibre as the shot placement was good and by the miracle of a warmish winter and resiliance the buck survived. Changes ones perspective on 'perfect shot placement'.
This will be the second wounded/healed deer this year.

Mark

Mark

Many thanks for a very informative post.

It is interesting for me to consider that this may have been the work of a smaller calibre, maybe combined with an inappropriate bullet. Im assuming it could have been a fragmented BT style projectile as you do not mention any recovered bullet in your description.

Down south the Deer world seems split regarding the benefits or otherwise of reducing legal calibre on smaller deer species.

Personally I tend toward a larger calibre - but recognise that with an appropriate bullet the .22cf family are perfectly adequate for Roe.......most of the time!

Rgds Ian

Just to refine the information the 'cream cheese' is most likely cholesterol deposited in the cyst cavity.
If I had known I would have left the red offal in situ for forensics so I can only guess at small calibre. I presume the wound sealed itself over preventing the lungs from collapsing and the buck had a chesty cough for a few weeks. Even with a 7mm the entrance wound is tiny
Ian I concur with your comments. I dont favour .22 CF for roe as I have seen the problems with range, windage, clean kills with a 243 and 308 when shooting roe and muntjac. the roe here are on the open hillside so unlike woodland stalking shots at 200m are not unusual.
At present I use a 7mm monometal bullet 120gn @ 3300 fps producing a very flat trajectory.

There's no sure thing !! Murphy's law does exist ! In P.O.Ackley's book he mentions a large mule deer that they finally were able to get. As they were always experimenting with new cartridges and bullets they always did a thorough autopsy .They found that the deer had twice in the past been hit in the lungs and survived !! Thanks for the photos they illustrate it well.

We had an interesting experience over the weekend with a muntjac.

A newish stalker was on an accompanied stalk when he took what was described as a broadside heart/lung shot at about 40 yards on a munty doe. At the shot, the beast was seen moving off with its near side front leg "swinging"..

A hasty search by the pair found a few spots of blood, plus a few short whitish pins near the spot where the beast had been standing..

The very sparce blood trail was soon lost in the dried leaf litter on the forest floor.

At that point, the more expirenced guy decided they should return to the cottage to get help in the form of more bodies, and three GSPs.

The search resumed, but none of the dogs showed any particular interest on the trail and several of us ended up combing the area looking for more blood.

A few additional spots were eventually found on the leaf litter, in the form of odd spots no bigger than a penny, most in fact smaller.

These were marked, but no "line" could be determined and the dogs still didn't show any interest.

The blood trail was probably no more than 30m or 40m long, and very very intermittent..

After an hour or so, as no progress was being made, we retired for breakfast and a rethink.

Later in the day, it was decided to try again, working the dogs into the wind starting several hundred meters away from original location to try to air sent the animal if it was couched up some where..

This tactic proved to be successful and the wounded Munty was flushed by one of the dogs and shot by the handler.

I got to see the carcass in the larder after a hasty grolloch..

There was a neat round "entrance" wound on the near side of the animal low down on the neck, just infront of the shoulder, and it was assumed this indicated the shot was a litle further forward than planned.

Rather than exiting on the offside as expected, the bullet appears to have turned, gone under the near side shoulder, "dettaching" it from the ribs ect and exited just behind the shoulder, again on the near side. This obviously gave rise to the swinging leg...

This left a nasty exit style wound as expected, with a few shads of jacket material in it.

In hindsight, I am wondering if what we assumed as being the exit hole, was infact the point of strike, with the bullet blowing up on contact.

The neat hole on the neck could have been from a fragment or perhaps the core as it exited???

The caliber concerned was a .270win and the bullets were 150grain factory loads of some type...

I have have had a similar strange bullet performance on muntjac with my .308win, although the animal didn't run in my case..

Mark good one - I have heard about shots like that, but never seen one.

Pete - just guessing - first thing that would cross my mind is that muntjac wasn't quite broadside or it did turn toward the shooter, just when shot was fired (that would also explain entry bit forward then planned) - below is a photo from one of my trackings on red calf that was shot quartering from behind (just as you described - opposite way), the entry was behind the shoulder and bullet exited infront of shoulder with obviously nasty wound:



P.S. That poor chap was previously hit by a car - see the missing hide on hind leg.

We have had similar incidences of apparent healed bullet holes in roe only! We put this down to fights between bucks especially "murder bucks", not having a great deal of poaching in our area we never considered some one taking pot shots with a small caliber.
Perhaps next time we will ask Grisham or Horatio to do an autopsy just to ascertain the cause.

regards
griff

Hey guys,

Interesting thread and as everyone else has summized I also would think in innapropriate small caliber and bullet the cause.

Did get a VERY quartering shot on a Roe Buck one time - you could see where the bullet had singed his hide across the rump, entered behind the last rib and exited the front of the chest. O.K. it was a .30/06 Sprg. with 165 gr. Nosler Partition. The unusual part was the Buck had his head down walking away at an angle from me and the core of the Partition re-entered under his jaw and cut a cookie-cutter hole through his nose too.

It's amazing how tough a body can be. My son-in-law shot a buck this winter with no lower leg on one back quarter. He had healed pretty well, but was considerably light in the haunches. It was towards the end of our seasons, so he had made it thru the winter. It was blown off pretty cleanly.

quote:

Originally posted by Pete E:

This left a nasty exit style wound as expected, with a few shads of jacket material in it.

In hindsight, I am wondering if what we assumed as being the exit hole, was infact the point of strike, with the bullet blowing up on contact.

The neat hole on the neck could have been from a fragment or perhaps the core as it exited???

The caliber concerned was a .270win and the bullets were 150grain factory loads of some type...

I have have had a similar strange bullet performance on muntjac with my .308win, although the animal didn't run in my case..

Pete,

Whilst I have seen many strange things I would find a 150gr 270 turning on a muntjac rib as a real freak occurance.

It is amazing how easy it is for even an experienced stalker to get the angle wrong on a buck especialy if it is partialy obscured by grass as is quite likely at this time of year with muntjac. The major contributing factor is that one cannot see the legs properly and it is mainly the legs which allow angle to be correctly computed.

This morning I did exactly the same on a partialy obscured roe buck at 60yards. I could not see it's legs but I could see it's body. I aimed at the chest and the shot went off as intended. In fact it had been 3/4on to me so I hit just in front of the shoulder and out on the shoulder.

The wound track you are indicating would indicate to me a 3/4 away presntation with the bullet hitting either the front of the far shoulder and exiting behind the far shoulder without entering the ribs or vice versa.

So I sort of concur with Mouse93 but realise that weird bullet related things do happen.

Mark,

Are both the marks on the shoulder previous injuries or is the back one your shot?

If they are both previous, it looks like the injury could well have been caused by a murder buck. I have a stalker mate who had a murder buck on his ground and found 3 dead bucks before he managed to get his "royal pointyness"

I had one in the scope last year and couldn't believe how lethal the antlers looked and I have no doubt they could cause such an injury. Especially as there doesn't seem to be any bone damage on the ribs.

Rgds,
FB

FB might be on something here.
I have seen the results of roebucks fighting, and they do it with gusto and determination.

Some years ago a neighbor farmer called me to shoot a buck he found in a dich by a dirtroad in his woods.
The buck had a hole just behind the left front leg, and was just breathing with pink blood bubbles coming out of the hole.

The farmer thought that someone had shot it with a 22 RF, but when we buchered the buck, the hole ended in the lung, and was abouth the sice of a finger in diameter and depth, no trace of bullet or fragments.
Most likely a murder buck who made short with a rival.

quote:

Originally posted by 1894mk2:


Pete,

Whilst I have seen many strange things I would find a 150gr 270 turning on a muntjac rib as a real freak occurance.

It is amazing how easy it is for even an experienced stalker to get the angle wrong on a buck especialy if it is partialy obscured by grass as is quite likely at this time of year with muntjac. The major contributing factor is that one cannot see the legs properly and it is mainly the legs which allow angle to be correctly computed.

This morning I did exactly the same on a partialy obscured roe buck at 60yards. I could not see it's legs but I could see it's body. I aimed at the chest and the shot went off as intended. In fact it had been 3/4on to me so I hit just in front of the shoulder and out on the shoulder.

The wound track you are indicating would indicate to me a 3/4 away presntation with the bullet hitting either the front of the far shoulder and exiting behind the far shoulder without entering the ribs or vice versa.

So I sort of concur with Mouse93 but realise that weird bullet related things do happen.

1894, Mouse,

I really can't be certain as I wasn't there when the shot was taken and nor did I pay too much attention to the carcass as I was busy sorting out one of my own..

I floated my idea past the chap who did witness the shot and he is convinced it was simply low/forward and basically took the leg out ..

The other damage he attributes to the second shot taken during the follow-up which was a raking going away shot taken on a "needs must" basis after the dog had located it..

What ever the exact circumstances, the buck must have gone a good 500m or 600m after the initial shot and it never fails to surprise me what tough little buggers they can be!

I still have to wonder if it would have been recovered if a CF .22 had been used???

Regards,

Pete

Hi FB

On the last picture you will see a dent in the ribs on the opposite side to the large hole. Quite a distance for a single antler to penetrate.Since this is a yearling buck I presume the 'murder buck' would have shed his antlers to early for this injury.
A very experienced stalker had a look today and feels a 22 CF and foxing type bullet was used.
We will never know for sure. Just another fireside mystery.

Mark

I have the antlers of a murder buck hanging on my wall in front of me. It was originally a large fork but on one antler the lateral point broke off, leaving a straight, spear-likej weapon. we presumed that he had killed or fatally wounded at least 3 good bucks, all of them with neat, round holes punched into their forhead which had gotten infected and were also crwaling with maggots. I shot him on an area which had originally been occupied by a big, young six-point. While this "killer" was around, the young buck had gone into hiding. Once it was in the freezer, the young one appeared again.

He's on my wall now as well, harvested 2 years later.

Good shooting. Munties can be very tough beasts,lucky it didnt run into the brambles.
Am I reading this wrong DJM but a .25-06 isnt a .22cf in-fact its bigger and faster than a 243 which makes that calibre legal for reds.
I,m not against .22cf for small game but and its a big but, I think the margin for error on a clean kill would increase IMHO.

Mark

Sorry about that DJM,got the wrong end of the stick. 'Kant reed properlike 2day'
We are seeing more shooting of deer for fun round here and leaving them dead in the woods than before, not even poaching for meat. More of a 'drive by shooting' using mainly non deer legal calibres. Any body else noticed this trend?

Mark