Where can I find some info (I/net) on the red deer? I have a chance to hunt these, free roaming, on a Texas ranch. I know that they are basically a European elk and are somewhat smaller than ours. How much do the hinds and stags usually weigh? How tough are they? I susspect my shots to be under 200yds. I'll either use my 7x57 L/M SSTs, or my 30-06 and 165GKs at 2750, unless I need to load a stouter bullet. thanks capt david

Stags weigh around 600 lbs going into the rut, but this can vary depending on the subspecies. After the rut they will be about 200 lbs lighter. Adult hinds weigh around 300 lbs.

Either gun / load is fine but if you decide to go over 2900 fps muzzle velocity then the sst's and gamekings will sometimes (not always) fail. They are a bit soft, more so the gamekings than the sst's. I have killed many with 7-08 light magnum sst´s in a 19 inch brl ruger and they work fine for any shot except a texas heart shot

How tough a stag is, also varies from one area to another. I have found the red deer in the southernmost (coldest) part of the andes range to be much tougher than other deer in Argentina.
Rut here is in March/April probably Oct/Nov in the northern hemisphere where you are.
Here are a few pics of stags from last March for you to start enjoying before your hunt.

John: did you measure the first head?. That big twelve pointer should score well, I guess.
Nice trophies, by the way.

i"d been shooting hinds in Scotland, and occasionally here in Northern Ireland, with a .243 and 100 gr soft points.
that was fine at 100-150 yds for hinds and smaller stags, but i went to a .308 about a year ago, esp for stags.
the last stag i shot with the .243 ran about 150 yds in to the woods, and was difficult to extract, so i wanted something a bit bigger in future. if i knew i was just after red deer i would carry the .308, but i would still shoot a red with the .243 if the need arose.
they are tough animals, but it"s shot placement that kills every time, not artillery.
good luck, and enjoy your hunt.

Nainital,
That stag looks bigger in the picture than it really is. None the less, it was a very good stag. The one in the second picture is much bigger than the picture would have you believe, biggr than the 12 point, and probably would score just under 200 Argentine system. I have done no measuring but still have all the heads. Nothing ships out until after the season ends.

Brass,
Many clients who have hunted both your neck of the woods and mine have commented that our stags are much bigger and tougher. Of course a .243 in the right hands and picking your shots would work but the thick woods here make it a bad choice for Argentine stag hunting.
IMHO

John

point taken, there"s a difference between woodland reds and open hill reds here as well.
The biggest reds i know of are in county donegal
in the north west corner of the Irish republic.
they"d be a lot bigger (generally speaking) than the reds i was shooting in Scotland.
there"s a story that a private estate over here was given 2 wapiti bulls many years ago, and that they were turned out along with the estate"s herd of reds. this herd still has some very large deer, possibly because of the legacy of the wapiti. many of our red herds are now "polluted" with sika, making average sizes smaller, as they interbreed.
anyway, your beasts may well be bigger, and require bigger medicine, although shot placement still makes all the difference.

Those stags look like they may have some wapiti in them.

Nope. I´ve never even seen an elk in Argentina. Wish we had them though.

Nice animals.

The North American elk (wapiti) and the European red deer are all the same species Cervus elaphus . I won't bore you with the subspecific nomenclature though...

It does vary a lot in size geographically though, as does antler size.

jpb

I tend to agree with Brass Thief. .243win is fine for small reds on the open Scottish hills, if a deer runs 100 yards after the shot, it is no big deal.
For larger low land deer, or deer in forestry, rather more is needed. For me, deer rifles start and finish with the .270win. The 7x57 or the .30/06 would do fine.
Donegal reds can be huge, running 300-400 pounds. I personally don't believe the wapiti story. A 600 pound red makes the mind boggle. How the hell would you ever get him to the 4x4? I shot a 200+ pound hind last November, out on my own. I had to get a John Deer and loader to handle the damn thing.

Brass Thief, were are you in Norn Iron?

I'm just outside Portiedown.

Regards

Claret,
jpb is correct, the wapiti and the red are the same species. They can interbreed and their offspring are fertile. To hear one roar and the other bugle you would never imagine them being the same though. Brass theif is also correct, the wapiti blood greatly increases both body size and antler size, not only because a wapiti is bigger but also because mixed breeds are bigger in general, take the brangus and braford breeds as examples. An Andes range stag can easily pass 600 lbs. This is me with one shot a few years ago. I wish I had a full body picture. You can see a little of the chest and the size of the beast. The second photo is a Pampas cull stag shot late in the season and even so was pretty close. At the start of the rut he would have been 600 lbs easy.

I also have used a .270 with barnes tsx 130 gn bullets to take a few stags and it works just fine. The cull stag took me an hour to load onto the truck, I was alone. I dug out holes for the back tires and pushing and pulling with a rope on the antlers and using the roll bar as a pulley I finally managed to get him on. I weigh 205lbs and it was not easy.

hey Claret,
i used to live in Portadown, but once i got back on my feet i moved out again!
you"re not near Loughgall by any chance?

Not to nitpick but for accuracy's sake, they're not the same animal but subspecies of a larger deer family (the biggest, being the Asian Maral). The Red deer (Cervus Elaphus) differs from the Wapiti (Cervus Canadensis) in size (variable according to habitat, though), behaviour (the red being more aggessive and dominant + roaring). Also the Elk's antlers end in a fork, while the Red stag carries crowns. This being said, they're genetically compatible and do interbreed all right.

John / JPB, sorry, I did not mean to say that I disagreed that red are essentially the same species as Elk / Wapiti. They obviously are. Reds in Ireland and Scotland have been interbreeding with Asian Sika, and the offspring are very fertile. No doubt the situation would be the same with Elk.

What I was saying was that I am not convinced that the large deer in Donegal are as a result of Elk blood. The west coast of Ireland is on the end of the gulf stream. Its climate is very wet, mild and fertile. The base strata is generally limestone. These factors, and some others, result in much bigger deer. There was a report in the Daily Telegraph several weeks ago about a German land owner in Co Galway who re-introduced Irish Red Deer to his property. He looked for the purest blood lines he could find, I think from Kerry. With 3 years on this ground, these deer were huge, both in body weight and antler growth. These deer had up to 24 points each. They looked quite different from the South American deer pictured above, particularly in the style of antler growth. The above deer to me look very "Elkish", particularly in their antler style.

Brass, I live on the Co Down side of Portadown, near Gilford, about 4 miles out of the town. I can understand you not wanting to live in that town.

Regards

quote:

Originally posted by Claret_Dabbler:
John / JPB, sorry, I did not mean to say that I disagreed that red are essentially the same species...

Regards

No apology needed -- biologists don't all agree on if they are 2 species, or 2 subspecies!

In any case, the differences between them are considerable, regardless of the label applied to them! Perhaps not surprisingly, most biologists do recognize the two as different species (and instead debate about how many subspecies there are...

jpb

Claret dabbler

I read the article in the Telegraph and saw the photographs of the trophys. I do not believe that the landowner had NOT introduced an alien species.

A native red stag would only produce 14 points max unless it was non typical and it mentions in the article that one stag "The Pirate" had 44 points. This is not a red stag as we know them in the British Isles and smacks of Wapiti to me.

Also the article mentions that he "brought back a species that had been present for centuries until the last few were shot during the famines of the 1840's".

Where would he obtain such an animal that had allegedly been shot to extinction?

Claret,
That farm in Co Galway sounds like a very good place to be on a moonless night with a quiet rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by JohnAir:

quote:

Those stags look like they may have some wapiti in them.

Nope. I´ve never even seen an elk in Argentina. Wish we had them though.

No I wasn't saying there are wild elk running around but those red stags look like they have wapitit genetics as well as red stag genes.

Red deer are not native to Argentina and were introduced. Just like in NZ and Australia we have deer farms and deer farmers imported semen or animals from wapiti to improve antler size and body size. Antler size for commercial velvet production. I would be very surprised if there were no deer farms in Argentina and that none of them were running wapiti ???

All it would take is for someone to release (or escape) a few wapiti or part wapiti stags and with their larger size they will compete very well with natural red stags for hinds.

I have shot a red stag at home which was from a herd which escaped from a deer farm. While mine is more a natural red stag antler configuration, a mate took one which he said obviously has wapitit genes as well. The herd is supposed to be 100% red deer BTW.

The antlers on some of those photos look strongly to have a percentage of wapiti genetics given the weight of the antlers. Also the body size and weight is an indicator.

It is not inconceivable that an enterprising entrepreneur would release some wap's to develop bigger antlers.

If given excellent feed any stag will grow large and also (with the right genetics) develop good antlers of course.

Nice large red stag trophies in your photos. No doubt about it that they would look good on the wall.

I beg to disagree, Jon2. On this year's national trophy show (= harvest 2004), these 2 stags were presented :

L: CIC Gold 203 pts. 18 pointer and barely 6 years old (one can only imagine how he would have been a few years later...)
R : CIC Silver 182,2 pts. 16 pointer, aged 8.

Every year a few stags of this quality are harvested in Belgium where there never was a single drop of Wapiti blood introduced. Pure Cervus Elaphus and the explanation is to be found in our strict application of a legal and heavily sanctioned management plan. Only misfits, young and mature stags (12 pointers at least) are permitted, while young 10 pointers + crown are preserved.

Red deer given lots of god quality feed and conditions (plus good genetics) can grow amazing heads (a lot more than 14 points). Witness pure blood red stags in deer farms. No Wap blood.

Unfortunately a lot of these farm bred "trophies" are shot at the end of their lives by so-called sportsmen "hunting" in NZ.

Andre

A couple of really nice heads there.

I can testify that these trophy heads are from genuine wild animals, the more so that hunting within fences, as well as restocking are illegal in Belgium.

Andre

Not implying that at all! I was talking about NZ and Aust. My point was with good feed very good heads can be "grown". My comment on deer farmers is they can control the feed and the deer have a relaxed lifestyle until .....

Andre

I was refering to Red Stags within the British Isles. The genetics will be different to animals found in Belgium because you are not an island.

quote:

Originally posted by NitroX:
Andre
Not implying that at all! I was talking about NZ and Aust. My point was with good feed very good heads can be "grown". My comment on deer farmers is they can control the feed and the deer have a relaxed lifestyle until .....

Even beyond deer farms, many land owners in the states manage the wild deer population to produce trophy antlers. Given the genetics, proper feed, and overall health some impressive antlers are grown. The whitetail have become the #1 large game animal hunted in the states. What used to be a meat hunt has become a trophy hunt. Farmers that used to allow people to just hunt their land, now demand that a hunter pay leasing fees.

In any case, I find no problem mistaking a rocky mountain elk with a red stag. To me they look very different.





By the way, I would love to find the time to some day hunt red stag in Argentina. I am supposed to have some relatives there. It would be an interesting trip.

NitroX,
I've sent you an email.

Thanks. Will look at it.

375AI,
Although pure blood Wapiti look different to Red Deer, once inbred like many found in New Zealand's Fiordland and now here in Australia it can be difficult to see the difference.
But they are still lovely animals any way.

The european red stag is a bit smaller than his american counterpart, but there is a great difference between the quite small scottish stag and the huge stag of the eastern european countries like Bulgaria, Romania and Hungary, whre they nearly reach the weights of american Elks. The stags of Germany are between the scottish and east-european type.
But normally you can say, that the american elk is bigger than his european cousin like all american things are bigger ( Pam. Anderson, Hamburgers, cars and so on)

quote:

Originally posted by Monastery-Forester:
The european red stag is a bit smaller than his american counterpart, but there is a great difference between the quite small scottish stag and the huge stag of the eastern european countries like Bulgaria, Romania and Hungary, whre they nearly reach the weights of american Elks. The stags of Germany are between the scottish and east-european type.
But normally you can say, that the american elk is bigger than his european cousin like all american things are bigger ( Pam. Anderson, Hamburgers, cars and so on)

We would say that about Texas...

Jon2.

You should see the red deer in and around Thetford Forest. A 12 pointer is not considered anything special down there, and 16 to 18 pointers are not unusual. I have seem such stags a couple of times and I have heard talk of animals with 24 points!..Other areas down south such as the New Forest also produce Reds which would darf their highland cousins, both in body weight and antler size.

Regards,

Pete

In Donegal, Ireland I have shot hinds to about 220lbs. Its is hellish pulling them out of young forestry even with someone else to help. I grew up in a family that advocated neck shots, so used a 22-250, but that is not to say I recommend the cartridge for such big game. A .243 should be the minimum as in the UK who have fairly sensible requierments for bullet size/weight and quarry type.

Often south of the Border it is next to impossible to get a licence for a good deer cartridge, and the 22-250 is legal for deer in Ireland and more easily grated by the police here. Some stations will grant the .243 some the 22-250 and more progressive ones the 6.5-55 or .270. Here deer cartridges are dictated by the station sargents conservatism or prejudice!

I read that a small number of elk were introduced to an estate in Scotland in the late 1800s to provide more varied sport and bigger trophies. In two or three generations the elk had adapted to fit the environment (available food, exposure, temperatures, competition) and were as "small" as the native red deer. After this pilot project the herd was shot out and no further introductions made.

Claret/Brass was that article regarding Galway in the Belfast Telegraph? I can not find it on their website.

Cheers, Late.

Late,

Are thw Reds "protected" in any part of Ireland (North or South)? I seem to recall a story of some visiting stalkers being done for shooting Reds that were "protected"...As these stories never loose anything in the telling I never did get to the bottom of it..

Regards,

Pete

They are all "protected"; seasons and quotas.

But in Co. Kerry there is no red deer season. These deer are seen as the purest bloodline and the most at threat. As was mentioned above, the introduction of sika has lead to viable hybrids. In Co. Wicklow sika are threatening to dilute out all the "pure" red deer.

Sika are in Kerry too and so these herds are not able to sustain hunting due to pressure form sika and of course farming, forestry and golf courses.

late

quote:

Originally posted by Late lane:
They are all "protected"; seasons and quotas.

But in Co. Kerry there is no red deer season. These deer are seen as the purest bloodline and the most at threat. As was mentioned above, the introduction of sika has lead to viable hybrids. In Co. Wicklow sika are threatening to dilute out all the "pure" red deer.

Sika are in Kerry too and so these herds are not able to sustain hunting due to pressure form sika and of course farming, forestry and golf courses.

late

The sika if not behind high wire should be shot out. Totally.