Hi guys,
in this discussion I'll not be polemic, but....
We all have our ideas about hunting.
I think that driven hunt is not realy hunting in about all cases why only the PH made the job that normaly need to do a real hunter. When I say "real hunter" I mean the hunter that looks the animal for months to know all the categories of animals, her habit and the territory where they lives. This is a long job that requires time, effort and passion. Not all hunter have all three.
Driven hunt is finalize to have a new trophy, but hunting is not only a trophy, it's much more.

Faina

Sorry guys, there is a incomprehension!!!
I write "driven hunt" but probably this is not what I intend. I intend "accompanied hunt", this type of hunt that someone made when you want to hunt in a country that you don't know good.
Sorry again for my bad english.

Faina

Faina, in your mind you might be right.

However I find that I think you are wrong, a hunt is more in the mindset of the hunter than in the actual hunt.

We use driven hunts as the main hunt for all large game animals, dogs or by people, there is nothing lesser about that sort of hunt, then with a stalk.

The idea of comparing hunts and forms of hunts is one that will split the hunting community, to think lesser of another mans hunt is not very good for spirits.

Where I lived in sweden we had really 3 weeks even though the season for moose is 3 months to shoot between 6 and 11 adults and 3-8 calfes, to have hunters stalk each moose in the forests of Sweden and kill them is a moot idea, it wont work.

So we hunt the mooose efficient and intensly for 2x3 days within 3 weeks, then it´s done.

We dont disturb then again until next year.

By the way moose are hunted for the meat not the trophys in Sweden, large males are spared as a preservation/management method.

Roe deer and boar are different game animals, easier to stalk, or high seat, will do for the kind of hunt you advocate.

If you ask me what I prefere? I would say I love being out with my brethren hunting just as much as I love listening to the dog work the driven game as I love stalking through the woods looking at the nearby field for that old buck that should have been harvested last year.

In a world where one only buys the hunt and not a lease/membership of a hunting club, you might be right, however I find that counts is what is in the heart and mind of the hunter.

Best regards Chris

Chris put some valid points here.

Just some additional thoughts:

There are “driven hunts†and “driven huntsâ€.

There are cases when hunt takes place in a limited area with many hunters (that almost hold hands) and many beaters with many hounds (not my type), while there are others in wide areas with only 3-4 hunters and 1-2 beaters, where hunters took their seats (couple hundreds meters apart) early in the morning (still dark) while those 2 beaters silently stalk certain paths and gently push the game – it takes a lot of skill and knowledge of the game and area to make such drive successful.

P.S. There is additional point in what Chris said – game is much less agitated if you perform 1 driven hunt/season/area, than continuously – day by day - bother animals with stalks at their prime hours of feeding – forcing them to become nocturnal ect...

I consider myself to be quite fortunate to have access to a (small) territory, close to my home, with a little small game but with quite a large population of Roedeer. 3 friends + my son-in-law and myself lease the hunting rights and we stalk or hunt deer from high seats. This situation is more the exception than the rule for, in small overpopulated Belgium, there is no such thing as public land and leasing is the only way to obtain hunting rights. Therefore, hunting is so expensive than very few can afford to hunt alone and/or decide about which way to hunt. About all territories are leased by large hunting parties of 20-40. Most often, hunting alone is not tolerated and organized drive hunting (with beaters and dogs) is the most popular/sole hunting mode. So, in some countries -including mine- your question would be irrelevant as the hunter has little choice. This being said, I like stalking and, being privileged, practice a lot. OTOH, I participate in many drive hunts and enjoy it too. As said before and I fully agree, hunting ethics are more dependent on a hunter's mindset than on a hunting mode.

A few small points:

I think driven hunting is important for the future of hunting in that it allows a wide participation from all classes, even if dozens of animals are not killed, everyone can participate and hunting keeps a presence in the annual calendar.

On the other hand, stalking is virtually the only form of hunting in the UK, which can mean that a handful of people have the rights to 10s of thousands of hectares of land (which is fine) but this leaves others, willing to pay good money out in the cold.

As for pure emotion, I still think stalking is the pinnacle of the sport, even more so in open surroundings like the highlands or in the mountains....but for pure adrenaline, having wild boar/deer race towards you is very hard to beat!

Faina, your post seems to me quite pointless and lofty; you have the chance and the time to spend "on the spot", since you likely live near the place you stalk and your local regulations allow you for indiviual stalking. Here, in western Liguria, like in many other areas, stalking is almost non existent and the only big game hunt is driven for boars and that is the same for many hundreds or even thousands of hunters. I'm allowed (after many efforts) to stalk the chamois in south-west Piemonte (only 1 per year and most of the time a yearling) but it's 140 km. far and it takes over 2 and 1/2 hours of driving to go there.

Like Chris said, two different approaches to the very same subject. I do like both, the solitary way to hunt by myself at dawn or dusk as well as the driven hunt as a social event with friends and dogs.

I would not want to go on a driven hunt every weekend, it's just too much action and, at least when participating as a driver, can be quite tyring, too. When I take my dog I am always a little worried if he comes back well, wounded or not at all.

Stillhunting or sitting a morning or evening on the hochsitz I could (and I usually do) every weekend. It's like being on holiday, releases tension enormously and is quite inspiring when one broods over and has to find a solution for issues from work.

The way we hunt/stalk up north is like Chris said dependent on what game one is hunting/stalking.

Moose is almost always some sort of driven hunt with dogs, seldom spot and stalk, but it happens. We also have the sole hunter with dog in lash who silently stalk the moose.

Red deer are somtimes driven at a slow and easy pace, somtimes spot and stalk, and quite often shot from stands on pastures at dusk and dawn and moonlit nights.
The same goes for roe more or less.

There is no such thing as black or white here as many has pointed out.
One way to hunt is not dergatory to the other.
It all depends on which game, what land, single stalker or a whole team, with or without dogs.....

I practice all of the aformentioned ways to hunt/stalk and enjoy them all

Sorry guys, there is a incomprehension!!!
I write "driven hunt" but probably this is not what I intend. I intend "accompanied hunt", this type of hunt that someone made when you want to hunt in a country that you don't know good.
Sorry again for my bad english.

Faina

Here in my country we have also driven hunt, specialy for wild boar and in many case this is the only way to hunt this animals. I don't like this type of hunt so much why create many disturb for other animals, but it's necessery.

Faina

quote:

Originally posted by Faina:
Sorry guys, there is a incomprehension!!!
I write "driven hunt" but probably this is not what I intend. I intend "accompanied hunt", this type of hunt that someone made when you want to hunt in a country that you don't know good.
Sorry again for my bad english.

Faina

No problem, you just brought up another interesting subject.

Neither in the new one is either a clear white or black, some hunts and kinds of animals like chamois in the Alps are only available "guided".

I do feel that under most circumstances it has moer of "shooting" than of real "hunting". For my taste, hunting is about the chase, the figuring out teh animal, make a plan and execute it with your own skills.

In places like Austria (I know) and Africa (I guess) they seem to pamper a guest and make his life as easy as possible, driving you to the stand, pointing you to the animal, even putting a soft little cushion under your elbow. What's left up to you is to pull the trigger. This is not really what I call real hunting.

Of course, if there's no alternative, it's still better than watching TV.

The 'guided hunt' is what we call 'accompanied hunt' in the USA. Driven hunt[battue in French IIRC] is obviously a group of watchers [who shoot] and drivers ,driving game.Some states permit use of dogs. Much of hunting here in NY state is picking a spot on a trail or feeding area sitting [sometimes in a high seat] and waiting for a deer. Vermont used to have a famous rare type who could find the track of a large buck and track him down.. Don't worry about your English it's much better than my Italian !!

quote:

Originally posted by DUK:
I do feel that under most circumstances it has moer of "shooting" than of real "hunting". For my taste, hunting is about the chase, the figuring out teh animal, make a plan and execute it with your own skills.

In places like Austria (I know) and Africa (I guess) they seem to pamper a guest and make his life as easy as possible, driving you to the stand, pointing you to the animal, even putting a soft little cushion under your elbow. What's left up to you is to pull the trigger. This is not really what I call real hunting.

I agree completely. I think that as a hunter, you have to earn the shot, the trophy.
"An other living being is giving it's life for your pleasure, live your life in a way, that you are worth it." Thats what's my grandpa always said, and thats what I always think about when I pull the trigger. If you pull up to the stand in your Porsche Cayenne, cough up a pile of cash to the local jaeger, take a shot and walk away to a dinner party, you are not worth it.
Hard work without the rifle is what makes a man a hunter, not the amount of kills or trophies.

quote:

Originally posted by Pric65:
Hard work without the rifle is what makes a man a hunter, not the amount of kills or trophies.

Absolutely.

Faina, based on how you rule on what is a good and bad way of hunting, a way that I disagree to, does that mean that you can´t go to a friends grounds to hunt as you don´t know the land and the game.

Furhermore does it mean that you will not travel to hunt abroad or with a guide even though it might be a great experience and that you might learn something.

If you act as you argue, then I belive that you are a greater man than I am, since I am always willing to experience new things even though it might be like so that I have paid money to get there.

Personaly I find that I shy hunts that are dissrespectful to the game, that have a "consumer feel" aka "canned feel" to them, hunts that are not done in good company and with poor hunter safety.

I have walked of from a duck hunt/shoot that i felt were a 12-gauged version of russian roulette, btw nobody got hurt that time, just my sence of "proper safety"

Best regards Chris

You can put too much definition on this whole question of "What Makes A True Hunter?"

At the end of the day when you go out hunting in whatever style, the objective is to kill your quarry. Not to say that if you don't shoot the day is a failure, but the question posed relates to the method by which the animal is bagged.

This implies the need for fairchase. I in no way feel that all hunting should be a solitary experience. I will sometimes spot a bunch of deer in a place that they cannot be shot so I will walk round and show myself to make them go towards a friend who is in a more suitable position. A team efford on a driven day invloves all the members doing their part. If the animals are free ranging then there is every chance that if one of the beaters doesn't hold the line, the deer/boar could break back and escape. In my book they have a sporting chance. The Rifleman also has to dod his bit in placing the bullet in the right place and selecting the correct animal.

As for guided hunts, the whole purpose is experiencing a type of hunting that you do't have at home. In the states they are lucky to have a far wider choice of game animals and terrain than us Europeans, (as individuals not as a whole). however when you get the right guide you hunt together, I led the PH in Africa on occasion and he led me at other times. We both spotted animals and had a good time.

One of the best stalks I ever had was on a stag that my mate was going to shoot in the Highlands. The Ghillie asked me what rout I would take and I told him. We agreed and my mate got his first ever stag and first Deer. The fact that it was a team effort made the blooding of a good friend so much better than if it wasn't a shared experience.

Anyway, I'll get off my soap box now before Ian and Pete accuse me of ranting again!!

Rgds,
FB

I think Faina was talking about a sort of "canned hunting"? Not about a lets say a hunt in Namibia with a PH or a deer stalking in the Scottish highlands when you have a gamekeeper with you.

Pric65, that's right!!!
Of course this discussion have not value if we talk about hunting antilope in Africa.......

Faina

I agree with Husqvarna, I have/had the chance to hunt abroad, always with a guide, with great pleasure. 99% of times, if one doesn't like to be guided, then he must stay home.

P.S. I'm not talking about antilopes in Africa, but about stags, roe deers and boars in Poland for instance, and this applies to every hunt abroad.

I think that Faina made his question taking in consideration the Italian situation. It would be very long to explain all the details and rules of the Italian hunting law.

The answer of Wildboar is a good one. But, by my opinion, it is only a part of a more detailed answer. All the other possible considerations are tooooooooooo looooooooong to describe.

Only a pair of personal data: beeing authorized to hunt big game in Italy, I live in Milan near to the center, I have to drive near an hour to arrive at a wild boar hunting area. A "base" one. To arrive at a very GOOD wild boar hunting area I have to drive for more than two hours.

The same driving time is needed to arrive to some roe deer hunting area.

How can I do the hard work without the rifle that makes a man a hunter?

Ciao Stefano, my consideration is not only for Italy, it's for every state and country.

Wildboar, yes, normaly I hunt at my home, but when I will hunt in other contries or state I hunt with real hunters, in real local hunting situations, this is important for me not the size or the trophy.
Diferent is not hunting for me.

Faina

Steve I just think Faina was speaking out loud, since we have very limited insight in Italian hunting as I expect you all to have in Swedish, I wouldn´t start out with saying that all so and so hunts are stinky.

Just plainly cause I don´t know the terms and rules in your country or the rest of them in Europe under wich you guys hunt.

I rather talk of the joy of hunting, the exitement and experience, I will not adress this again.

Best regards to all, and a special thanks to Faina who has broadened my views today.

/Chris

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Malinverni:
I think that Faina made his question taking in consideration the Italian situation. It would be very long to explain all the details and rules of the Italian hunting law.

The answer of Wildboar is a good one. But, by my opinion, it is only a part of a more detailed answer. All the other possible considerations are tooooooooooo looooooooong to describe.

Only a pair of personal data: beeing authorized to hunt big game in Italy, I live in Milan near to the center, I have to drive near an hour to arrive at a wild boar hunting area. A "base" one. To arrive at a very GOOD wild boar hunting area I have to drive for more than two hours.

The same driving time is needed to arrive to some roe deer hunting area.

How can I do the hard work without the rifle that makes a man a hunter?

Faina.
Even if we misunderstood each other a little bit at the start, I feel this was a valuable exchange of experience and opinions

Europe is so diverse regarding hunting and stalking oportunities, avaliable game, traditions, huntable grounds, expences, guns laws and regulations...you name it.

What is common sense one place, is out of the line at another.

I did sertanly learn something from this thread as well