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Here in Finland EU has made some stupid things agains hunters and nature. For example: Crows, magpies and fieldfares are protected from early spring to end of summer. If you want shoot them at spring, before they have chicks,(for protecting birds eggs and fledglings or your strawberry field) you need special permit from game authoritys. Same thing with use taperecorder and loudspeaker for alluring crows. EU is trying abjure traditional waterfowling at summertime. Wolfs and bears are almost totally protected and hunting of them is extremly difficult for EU rules. Limitation of number of cartridges in semiautomatic rifles and shotguns. Of course here are some domestic mistakes, for example denial to use lead pellets in waterfowling. | ||
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Tuomo, in Italy things are less bad than the apparence, but it must be whispered only... Authorities has created the category of the selection hunters, I one of them. Selection hunters (from now SH) are manager of nature. We must limit the number of crow, foxes, boars and all the nocive animals that can unbalance the natural situation of the territory. Actually pidgeon are under attack of SH, because they destoy grain and mais. Obviously, in spite of our great diligence and zeal, we are not able to be also fast in our action, and for this reason we spend a good part of the end of fall and winter, and all spring and summer ![[Big Grin]](images/icons/grin.gif){kind=icon} ![[Razz]](images/icons/tongue.gif){kind=icon} Not so bad for this reason, please don't do too much pubblicity.bye | |||
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Steve: what a zealous and diligent servant of the bonum commune you are - I am frozen in deep admiration... .Tuomo: partially, it is a problem in Germany. Crows (kill'em all - enough will survive anyhow) and pigeons are problematic, as are magpies. As to wolves, much of that is a problem of less-than enlightened legislation. European Union frame law demands that wolves be protected; it does not demand that wolves *must* be under environmental protection, but they could also be set under hunting law and be protected there, e.g. by closing the season. This was a truly quaint case in Germany this spring: one immoral a**hole hunter did shoot a well-known wolf, used the usual sleazy lawyeresque excuses afterwards ("I am a hunter, therefore of course I was sooooo afraid when meeting a wild animal in the woods, that I was shooting out of pure panic" - really !), and the criminal case was dropped, because a wolf is *lower* protected under animal and environmental protection law than it would be, if it were a huntable game. This crook of a hunter is now only facing administrative sanctions. Incredible, but true ! :-< Carcano | |||
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Carcano91, if you admired I'm real proud to be a SH, ANd I must admit that my companion and me are afraid that "nocive ![[Roll Eyes]](images/icons/rolleyes.gif){kind=icon} animals" like red deer, roe and fallow deer increase so much that we have to fight a new bloody battle to maintain at the optimal balancing them number ![[Embarrassed]](images/icons/blush.gif){kind=icon} . What a hard work it is ....... but when nocive animal�s begin to do a hard play hard hunter must begin play bye | |||
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quote:And blackbirds, swallows, nightingales, thrushes et al ..... ![[Wink]](images/icons/wink.gif){kind=icon} ![[Eek!]](images/icons/shocked.gif){kind=icon} ![[Mad]](images/icons/mad.gif){kind=icon} Steve, Not a personal dig but there is a perception in the UK that some Continental hunters persecute songbirds which is a big no no over here. Is it true? | |||
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Amercians need to read this post and see what the anti hunting people are out to turn our nation into!!! Using Europe as an excuse for the "success" of their bright ideas. This is why states need to keep states rights over hunting. As Mr. Tuomo seems to be frustrated with the laws of the EU. Why should someone in Contintental Europe tell Finlanders what to do in Finland? And from their probably misinformed prospective on top of it. Why does government have to destroy everything they touch with their "bright ideas"?/ I am not proposing anarchy, but common sense in government. What a concept Huh? Honesty, integrity and trust for the public from the government instead of telling us all what we should do from their prospective. | |||
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In EU all things seems to be collective. When in somewhere else is small amount of snowfoot hares, some people think, those must protect in Finland too. Same thing with bears. EU gives protection for all birds at nesting-time and because crows start nesting in Central-Europe two months earlyer than here, that is why crows are protected before they even arrives here from winter areas. I hope that EU will take into account local differences in nature and climate. Our European hunters should found interest group, which can act on EU strongly, like NRA in USA. Greens and antihunting people already have strong organisation inside EU in several levels. | |||
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Leave the EU. Seems a simple solution to me..... Or elect a national government that will at least ignore EU edicts that are contrary to the national interest. Somehow I feel the few good, individualistic Europeans left are fighting a losing, uphill battle. ![[Frown]](images/icons/frown.gif){kind=icon} | |||
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The downside of EU membership is that the EU regulations and laws are higher in the hierarchy than the laws of individual member countries. By being a member, a country can benefit by better access to markets outside it�s own borders and reduction of import duties. The EU legislation has however been generalized so that the effect can be negative and unneeded in one country but necessary elsewhere. Since the governments of member countries have agreed to respect the EU legislation, they simply cannot ignore it. Leaving the EU would most likely effect most members economically in a negative way so that is an unlikely solution. | |||
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Sounds like government at its finest. We are going to screw you over, but tell you it for the benefit of someone else you don't even know, somewhere far away, so you can't check out if we are lying or not. However it will justify the jobs of we politicians! Wasn't communism the sacrafice of the individuals rights and freedoms with the excuse it was for the 'good' of the society?? And a European Union is formed to give more trading rights for economic benefit? doesn't that translate to, join us, let us control your life from our prospective and we won't tax you as much this way ( tariffs) but we will eventually come up with ways to tax you another way? This is why the USA needs to stay out of the UN, as this is what the UN people want to turn the entire world into. An international haven for the politicians of the world, while really ignoring the people of the world. We all need less government and governments to start using common sense. More taxation is not the answer anywhere!, but is always the governmental solution to everything. Create a problem that does not exist so you people need us to solve it for you ( political job security) This is a world wide problem, not just in the USA, Europe or anywhere else. We don't need anarchy, just sanity. | |||
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1894 and British, unfortunately I must agree with you, but I must correct the aim.Songbirds are not in SH range of activity, but are captured by poachers, and I do not have any other name for them until law will not been (eventually) changed. Nevertheless there is something that must be said: this is one of the most traditional game food in one of the most poor Italian northern regions in a not so far past. And it is difficult to fight against centuries of food history. “Polenta e osei” that means “a thick porridge made with maize flour and spit roasted little birds” is a recipe that has from 4 to 5 century of history. It is very famous particularly in the area near Bergamo and Brescia, and I tasted when I was child and this kind of hunt was permitted. Not bad I have to admit, maybe a little too bitter and strong for a child. But spit roasted little birds recipe is more ancient, probably very, very ancient. Italian hunters generally loves shotguns and wing shoot, loves a quantity hunt more than a quality hunt. But also this finds an explication in our history and in our past. Big game was a hunt for few people, very rich or nobles or even monarch. The Italian National Park of Gran Paradiso has been created by Vittorio Emanuele II King of Italy to protect Ibex that he has avidly hunted for a lot of years. In Italy rifles were rare, and I have a tale of my mother that remember the son of a hunter, a mountaineer, repeating to all the people, interested or less, passing in front of his house “My father has killed a chamois!!!” It was an historical event in the village, but absolutely fortuitous, because done with a shotgun charged with bird pellets …………… By my side, I’m a rifle man, I use a rifle one or two times in a year……however more people go wing shooting more wild boars for me bye | |||
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quote:It seems this is a distinct difference between the American and European national characters. We began our nations as REVOLUTIONARIES, and still have that streak in us. That is the main reason why the US will NEVER agree to subordinate itself to any trans-national organization like the UN or the EU in any way except in minor treaties. I wonder if any independence-minded European nation like Finland will muster the balls to tell the EU that it will ignore EU rules that are inconsistent with Finnish law. National sovereignty means EVERYTHING to most Americans, myself included. When we say that UN soldiers would be slaughtered in the streets if they chose to impose UN rules on us, it is no idle boast. | |||
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Steve Malinverni: Thanks for an interesting read ![[Smile]](images/icons/smile.gif){kind=icon} and good luck with the boars | |||
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quote:You can accelerate that by voting correctly (right wing) and with massive disobedience of EU laws. | |||
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| <GlennB> |
The ten most dangerous words you will ever hear "Hi, I'm from the government and I'm here to help" | ||
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uh-oh I have to do a little correction to my previous post, where I say quote:It must be read as: "By my side, I’m a rifle man, I use a shotgun one or two times in a year……however more people go wing shooting more wild boars for me." I don't really know how many, time I have with me my rifle, I think almost always bye | |||
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I have had these EU versus Nationalism debates with my friends from Finland and Sweden, numerous times usually over some Koskin Korva and Lapin Kulta. The big winners in the EU structure as I see it are the French and Germans. The last time I was in Karhula, I saw more French and German salesmen than I had ever seen before. As I travel through the North countries as I do fairly regularly for my business I have formed an opinion. The French and Germans seem to be treating the some of these countries more akin to colonies than sovereign states. That I think will begin to wear on the Swedes and Finns in a very short time. It's like the French and Germans feel that it's their playpen and the Swedes and Finns are in it. | |||
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Are you all sure that those politicians in Brussels are the ones to blame for this situation ? I agree there are a lot of stupid decisions being made (and not all of them concerning hunting�) by those guys in Brussels but the national authorities account for most of the controversial decisions regarding hunting or non-hunting species (at least it is so in Portugal). Even on the present hunting season (2003/2004) I can find on the species� list one or two species that we can�t hunt but that can be hunted in Spain (our neighbouring country) and vice-versa! On last elections the �greenies�, with less than 10.000 votes (and with the help of the communist party), elected one deputy that has been very active at the Parliament. There are over 220.000 hunters in Portugal! I don�t recall any one at the Parliament defending the hunters� rights! Go figure why??!!!. Can any hunter, in any EU country, truly say that he is being truly represented at any central administration level involved in decision making on crucial hunting matters? No. Even when we appoint someone to any hunters organization involved on the decision making process we always appoint someone that is more a politician than a hunter! We hunters we complain about legislation that we consider restrictive and stupid but we do nothing about it! We all are to busy hunting! Aren�t we? B.Martins | |||
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| <JOHAN> |
quote:True, but the entire idea of E.U is to keep peace between the krauts and frogs. Now, with todays world order that is not problem. The French are the ones who drives the EMU project forwards and would like to make a grand Europe. Just wait and see, it there is something that there will be a fight about it's the EMU, the new menbers for Central East Europe will not give up that easy. Fighting frogs and krauts is nothing when you have been fighint with russians for money If there is something that will break down the E.U it's the EMU. It will cause enormous problems between nations. The strange thing is that conservatives in Europe is agaisnt the EMU while out Swedish Right conservatives are for the EMU , they seem to have missed something./ JOHAN [ 06-22-2003, 04:05: Message edited by: JOHAN ] | ||
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Wasn't it in the way, that the single countries of the EU sent the most worst politicans to Br�ssel, because nobody want to have them in the country. At least here it was in this way. And now we get the bill for doing this shit. It starts that the people are aware that the EU does rule a lot of things in a way which is bad in some cases. Now the time comes, that the frame laws needs to be recontructed, that the countries can act more local. Not only in hunting. Best regards | |||
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| <JOHAN> |
Sauenj�ger1 I think it's time for a more confederate modell of EU where the four basic freedoms are held up but other questions shall be handled within each country, not Moscow style E.U for me, all answers are from Bruxells I guess the same thing is true here too, crap politicians goes international. / JOHAN | ||
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Eu is sertainly trying to fuck up our hunting with all kinds of stupid rules. We are not members of the Eu but we are a member of the E�s, a trade agrement with the Eu. Since most politictian are pro EU they accept all the rules they can to be the best in the class. Acctually Norway are one of the contries that are using most of the EU rules even when compared to the member states! I hate this! There as been to election and both times there was a no from the people, still they try to beat us down with all kinds of stupid rules. They need to say no! We are not a member even if they like to be, and we can say no!!!!!!!! EU try to stop whaling, wolf and lynx hunting, inpose reduculus slaughter rules etc. Also they try to take away our fishing rights, oil, gass, farming, life outside the cities etc. NO TO EU! NEI TIL EU! Johan | |||
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quote:Well, the single dominating power within the EU is definitely Germany. There would never have been a Euro as a valuta without the DM as a base. Therefore it is quite obvious that Germany is the backbone of the EU. Since the EU is more or less just about trade and monetary matters, it should not be of surprise that some rules like those about hunting are a bit controversial and even outright stupid. If smaller players want to join, they do so by adjusting their legislation to that of the bigger players. Economically speaking it is a win/win situation but in lesser affairs like hunting it is not. | |||
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quote:In all honesty, I find very little in your post that is so terrible. Let's work these issues. 1.) The season on crows was changed. Changes in seasons happen all the time. Can't use your loudspeaker and tape? Buy a mouth call. 2.) Waterfowl season changed. Again, happens all the time. By the way, check with the Australians. They have lost their waterfowl season in many places. 3.) Bears and wolfs. Have there been biologists studies done on these species. Do they need more protection? 4.) Limitation on number of cartridges. Use a sxs or o/u. How many shots do you need to humanely harvest a deer? Does it really take a 30 round clip? No, of course it doesn't. 5.) Restrictions on the use of lead for waterfowl. Well a belated welcome to the 20th century! That is when most of the world changed over. The idea is to protect the waterfowl from lead poisoning. You will find tungsten matrix and bismuth to do just as good a job. Hunters have got to learn that they need to ban together to get their voices heard in any political forum. Even more, they have to demonstrate a superior knowledge of the biology of the game they pursue and sometimes harvest. They have to demonstrate a commitment to improving the environment and increasing or at the very least, stabilizing game numbers. That is the only way to maintain our hunting traditions. Pete [ 07-02-2003, 19:57: Message edited by: Quail Wing ] | |||
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quote:There is such an interest group, but it is formed ruled by the various national hunting associations, so the "grass-roots" are not involved in the same way as in for instance NRA. But this group have their own people in Brussels, and so has the Swedish Hunting Association. | |||
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quote:Thank you Pete for your reply. For limitation of crow population, it�s important shoot them at spring before nesting. Crow shooting at autumn doesn�t effect so strongly to population. Summertime waterfowl season is just tradition, but if we accept all limitations, then we must stop hunting after 50 years. Wolf and bears. Here has been 10s of years biological studying about them. We have biologist which are just concentrated big predators. Wolf needs more protection, bears have good population and can be hunted (limitedly). I don�t use semiautomatics (just Benelli some times), but in EU is fun cartridge limitations - you can load your semiautomatic rifle with 4 cartridges for moose, but only with 3 cartridges for bear. In Finland, lakes have mud bottom and they are quite deep, so lead poisoning problem is real only few lakes in this country. But it�s good that new materials (bismuth, Tungsten and Hevishot) can be used in waterfowling and are good stuff. I accept that most important thing for game animals is environment. Food, hiding places and peace for nesting. | |||
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Hello gentlemen, If I might add my 2 cents worth on this EU topic. If you look closely at the USA’s history, you will note that they originally started with 13 sovereign, self-governing states. The union of these states was only for the purpose of common trade and currency between themselves. The US Federal government was not the all empowering authority over these separate sovereign states until the Civil War came along and gave them the excuse for their grab for power. It seems to me that the EU has already started down this path. All you have to do is look at all the similarities… Be careful over there, otherwise you will end up a European version of the USA!!! | |||
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quote:This is not the place to discuss the US Civil War, but you really are far from the reality of why the usa was founded and the reasons for the Civil War. Pete | |||
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quote:Another know-it-all that knows everything about the United States. | |||
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quote:Carcano, an interesting case. We had a similar case here, but with somewhat other ending. A hunter here shot a wolf during a nightly hunt for foxes. As wolves are protected, he reported his mistake to the police. He was judged, and now he has to pay a 9000 Euros fine. In another case, a farmer shot a wolf, which attacked his sheeps. There is a trial about that now, and no doubt it will be a draconic punishment there too. Fritz [ 08-10-2003, 10:54: Message edited by: Fritz Kraut ] | |||
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quote:Wolves are vermin. European farmers must learn the American way: shoot, shovel, and shut up. | |||
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quote:I agree with you "Orion 1." Since I am an American citizen, I do hope that I know about the USA and it's history of governance. The question is how much do you know? Look into it and you’ll be surprised at how and over what time frame the centralised federal power base came into being as we know it today. Also, being an American myself, I’d like to ask you to please avoid making stereotypical comments which embarrasses the rest of us more polite and educated Americans abroad. We have to live everyday with your stereotyped rudeness. Thank you | |||
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