OK, as a forester, I´m professionell hunter in one of the "best" hunting areas for boars and red deer of Germany and we are on driven hunts in the next 10 weeks between 3 and 4 times the week. If the weather is not too bad, I use my Heym 88 in 9,3x74R or my custom ZG47 in 8x64S or 8x60S, if the weather is very bad I use my Sako 85 stainless in 8x57IS... No need for a semiauto or a cowboy-rifle!

quote:

No need for a semiauto or a cowboy-rifle!

Yes, you don´t need a cowboy rifle. But if I came to you, for a hunt. And have my "cowboy rifle"- Marlin-.450M-guidegun in my hands, would you say, I must go home, with my, in your eyes, non-practical rifle?
Or should I use better my pre-WW2 belgium made double, chambered for an other "cowboy" round, the .405WCF?
OK, I can use my 7x57 Mauser rifle, but I don´t know the different, when a 50kg-wild boar is hit from an 11,2g RN @ 740m/s or an 22,5grs RN @ 580m/s. Dead is Dead.


Martin

First you must hit it and it is easier to hit it with your double or your Mauser than with your leveraction!(better triggers, better sights)

quote:

First you must hit it and it is easier to hit it with your double or your Mauser than with your leveraction!(better triggers, better sights)

First, I saw hunters, missing the target with the "best" rifles available.
Second, I have no problems with trigger pull. It´s all a kind of practice.
And third, my Marlin is mounted with a used 2,5-10x50 scope, I bought for 100.-€. For driving boar not the ideal solution, but I can handle it. Better would be a red dot sight like a Aimpoint or a variable, like a 1,1-4x20 with red dot. But the price......
By the way, for me, all the leveraction since the Winchester M86 was introduced, aren´t "cowboy" rifles. This rifles are made as hunting rifles, like the first nonmilitary bolt actions. Also in the USA were hunters, who prefer bolt actions befor 1900. A leveraction can also use for the normal hunt, like other rifles. The accuracy is the same or better, like the most older combinated guns. You need no lever, but it´s possible to use one.
I like levers, especial the big bore, heavy framed Marlins or Winchesters. Also I like M98 rifles and classic doubles. But my favourit are the single shot rifles, the falling blocks. One shot, one kill.


Martin

quote:

Originally posted by Dewey:
If, I were to return to "Der Swartzwalde" in Baden, from where my forbears came to North America, beginning in the early 17thC. and, eventually to BC, some 140 years ago, I would enjoy hunting. I would probably use my Merkel drilling in 9.3x74R, with 286Nosler Pts. and Brenneke 2.75" slugs as these print side by side at 25M....that should whack any mobile porkchop in good old Germany or anywhere else!

In many hunting areas, hunters are explicitly asked NOT to use slugs on driven hunts. The rationale seems to be increased tendency of ricochets with slugs. I have no way of verifying whether this is true or not. But it is not uncommon to have hunts where slugs are not allowed - e.g. the area in Alsace that I hunt.

I have hunted some with my drilling on driven hunts where I felt I could sensibly benefit from the option to use both shot (roe and fox in Switzerland is primarily hunted with shot) and rifle (for the odd pig). The theory is good. Sadly, the drilling turned out not to be the right choice for me personally (YMMV). Reason: My Krieghof - and a lot of other drillings - relies on a set trigger for the rifle barrel. It turned out less than optimal for me, as I mostly forgot to set the darn thing in the heat of the battle, and shooting the set trigger unset was a problem due to the heavy trigger pull. These days, I just bring my R93, and darned be those shots on running foxes...

- mike

quote:

Originally posted by Monastery-Forester:
No need for a semiauto or a cowboy-rifle!

MF, this is what I referred to a couple of posts ago, when I pointed out, that lever actions are little used on driven hunts in Europe because this action type has little tradition here.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with choosing to hunt a driven hunt with your favourite bolt action, or, if you believe in a quck second shot and can afford the expense, a nice double. Those are traditional choices in Europe, they have always worked and will always work.

That said, there is also no doubt that hunting - in particular in Central Europe - is an activity steeped in tradition and unwritten "rules". Many hunters interpret this as a requirement of conformity - i.e. bring the "different" type of gun, or wear the "wrong" clothes and don't expect to be invited back next year... I'm all for tradition and I'm all for respecting where our hunting came from and how it will look in the future. I do, however, have a problem with this strict requirement of conformity. It is the perfect opportunity for pointing fingers at other hunters, simply because they may have a different taste in firearms, clothing or whatever. Happily, it does seem that even Central European hunters have started to accept that there may be other options than the traditional ones. So rifles with synthetic stocks, stainless barrels, camo clothing or whatever seem to be less cause for immediate xenophobia these days. I find that a positive development, although I still think the tradition is a good thing and should be kept alive. All things with moderation, though.

- mike

I won´t rate anything over a double rifle for fast shooting, but on the other side: a good bolt action is also OK - just train hard on fast reloading... why not...

I find it funny that anyone would deny the utility of a good lever action in say .35 Remington for a driven hunt.....open sights and the ability to shoot 5 shots accurately in rapid succession would seem quite apropos. I'd take mine any day over a scoped rifle for shots 100 yds. and under for running game.

quote:

Originally posted by Norton:
I find it funny that anyone would deny the utility of a good lever action in say .35 Remington for a driven hunt.....open sights and the ability to shoot 5 shots accurately in rapid succession would seem quite apropos. I'd take mine any day over a scoped rifle for shots 100 yds. and under for running game.

I can do the same in a bolt action rifle,
so what's the big deal about Lever actions.
No of rounds is / can be the same.

Bolt's can be loaded nearly as fast but fast is only as good as your accuracy.

As a rule, I work on 4 AIMED and ACCURATE Shots from a Bolt Action in under 10 seconds.

I think it is a traditional thing here in the eastern USA. As some have used levers for years, it is very possible any action style is best for an individual because of preference.

Gab
Last weekend, I picked up a BLR (Japan) in .358 Winchester at a local gunshop here in Colorado. I have always wanted one. A brush gun! For pigs in cover in Texas or California. I am impressed with how fast the action cycles. Faster than a Winchester 88 I have. With a much better trigger. Are you not joining the guys with Tomo this week??
Cheers.

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:

quote:

Originally posted by Norton:
I find it funny that anyone would deny the utility of a good lever action in say .35 Remington for a driven hunt.....open sights and the ability to shoot 5 shots accurately in rapid succession would seem quite apropos. I'd take mine any day over a scoped rifle for shots 100 yds. and under for running game.

I can do the same in a bolt action rifle,
so what's the big deal about Lever actions.
No of rounds is / can be the same.

Bolt's can be loaded nearly as fast but fast is only as good as your accuracy.

As a rule, I work on 4 AIMED and ACCURATE Shots from a Bolt Action in under 10 seconds.

Never said it was better.....all of my other rifles are bolts. Just bought my first lever a couple of years ago......just good fun.....and I shoot it accurately. I enjoy open sights whenever possible. The ballistics on my .35 with Leverevolution ammo are great. Anyone that I let shoot it wants one.

Bolts are more accurate.....so what? For the applications noted here, levers are more than accurate enough. I would never scope a lever anyway.

My first rifle I bought with 18 years, was a Browning M1886 carbine in .45-70.


Martin

I consider these to be the finest lever rifles ever built and the repro. 1895s and 71s from Miroku are of the same quality. The 1886 action simply is so smooth, feeds so well and is as solid as an Abrams tank, while being compact and easy to carry, I really think highly of these.

If, one must use a lever for boar hunting, this is the best choice, IMO and one that is going to put the porkchops in the fryingpan.

Thanks guys - some thought provoking stuff here. Glad to see there are some strong opinions both ways!

Gabriel

Hopefully the guys that do the proofing will get a move on, & I will have my stainless 45/70 guide gun in time for the Boar in January (Dorset)

Bought the Browning BLR in 308

Now to test it on something...

I have always coveted the BLRs, and it is hard to go wrong with a .308!

What is the trigger like??

- mike

It is not light but a clean breaking trigger, will weigh it once my licence is varied...

It only weighs 6 lbs and cycled very quickly without any practice. I'm looking forward to playing with it before deciding if it is a keeper.

Lever actions are deeply unfashionable in the UK (and Europe apparently!) so the price was quite cheap. At least practice will easy to arrange with some milsurp ammo.

Thanks Gab. I think it is probably sensible not to expect bolt action accuracy out of it. But honestly, we have gotten pretty pampered with respect to rifles these days, and even 1.5-2" groups will kill just about any deer (or pig) for you at almost any distance.

Do you intend to scope it, and if yes, how?

- mike

quote:

Originally posted by Monastery-Forester:
OK, as a forester, I´m professionell hunter in one of the "best" hunting areas for boars and red deer of Germany and we are on driven hunts in the next 10 weeks between 3 and 4 times the week. If the weather is not too bad, I use my Heym 88 in 9,3x74R or my custom ZG47 in 8x64S or 8x60S, if the weather is very bad I use my Sako 85 stainless in 8x57IS... No need for a semiauto or a cowboy-rifle!

I am not doubting your experiences as a hunter or professional. However, your view that a lever-action is a cowboy-rifle is mistaken. Too much Hollywood.

The 1st lever action was the Spencer, 1860. Chambered for the 56–56 Spencer Rimfire cartridge.It was about as powerful as the .58 musket and had a rate of fire of about 20 rounds per minute.

While not officially adopted by either side during the US Civil War, many state units did use lever actions. The 7th & 23rd Illinois used Henry lever actions.

Later the US Military did adopt some lever action guns, mainly in 45-70 with a 405 grain projectile.

Eventually these were abandoned in favor of the bolt action as it could handle higher pressures.

As with any rifle to use one effectively takes practice. Would I consider it a traditional choice for driven boar in Germany? No. But it can certainly accomplish the task. As a professional, I am sure you appreciate that.

Regards,

quote:

Originally posted by mho:
Thanks Gab. I think it is probably sensible not to expect bolt action accuracy out of it. But honestly, we have gotten pretty pampered with respect to rifles these days, and even 1.5-2" groups will kill just about any deer (or pig) for you at almost any distance.

Do you intend to scope it, and if yes, how?

- mike

Mike
I am not even a 1" shooter with my bolt action rifles so 2" accuracy would be more than fine. I was thinking of putting a red dot sight with no magnification on it. Depends on whether the stock will allow me to use a scope comfortably though.

gabe

go look at the burris fastfire, small and you can have it mounted very near the barrel, so much so that if you can use the irons, i will almost gurantee you that you can use it as well.

good unit that can take a pounding, i use them on the big bore doubles and they have not let me down yet.

best

peter

Yes, the BLR stock seems to have quite a bit of drop, so you'd certainly need any optical sights mounted pretty low.

We all have our preferences, and there is not necessarily a "right" or a "wrong". So just take what I say now as a personal opinion...

If it was my rifle, and I could do a lot of driven hunting with it - enough to make me feel comfortable about reserving the rifle for driven hunts exclusively - a red dot sight might make sense. Surely they are fast in a tight spot.

On the other hand, if I wanted to use the rifle for other hunting - which the caliber would certainly allow - I'd consider a scope for it (as well). Even on some stands on driven hunts, magnification makes life easier.

Perhaps a Weaver system allowing you to change betweeen red-dot and scope?

- mike

Finally collected one of these last night, for the Porker's in January,
http://www.marlinfirearms.com/...ore/photo_1895GS.jpg