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Sarge, The main reason I posted the info was just to close the loop so to speak if you were interested.. I would love to hunt Leopard in Africa and the big cats facinate me in general so I am more than interested about the possiblities of them existing in the UK. Unfortunately, the subject seems to draw all the fruitcakes who are into UFO's, ghosts and "cryptozoology"; and see such strange phenomenon in any un explained event. Even the generic name they use for the subject: ABC (Alien Big Cats) makes me shudder...take a look at the following, but you need to take some of it with a pinch of salt: http://www.britishbigcats.org/ http://freespace.virgin.net/brian.goodwin/bigcats.htm http://www.bigcats.org/abc/index.html# http://www.100megsfree4.com/farshores/engcat.htm The one guy who was very knowledgeable/credible on the subject was a fella called Quentin Rose who was an ex zoo keeper and then worked free-lance recapturing, trapping, darting and moving zoo animals in the UK or Europe. I heard a couple of lectures of his and they were very compelling. Unfortunately he died last year and will be sorely missed.. Regards Pete [ 07-30-2003, 03:09: Message edited by: Pete E ] | |||
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Those reports pretty much correspond to what I have seen and read. Cougar are very common in California but only a tiny handful of people ever see one. (The ones to worry about are the ones you don't see!) For some reason they have been declared sacred here, even though two women were killed and eaten by cougars after the silly-ass law was passed. A lot of "incidents" happen that don't hit the mainstream media, according to the Dept of Fish and Game. Their view is, yes, the cougar is protected but self-defense applies to big cats as well as burglers found in your house after dark. When you feel that your life is in danger, shoot! | |||
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The BEST Cougar is a dead cougar!!! | |||
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Seafire, Although I don't live under their shadow, I certainly don't take that view. As with the wolf, I think the world will be a far worse place if we erradicate all the preditors...However, I don't believe they should be over protected either....it seems many States had the right balance untill the greens/anti's upset things. Sarge, Although I knew that cougar attacks were on the increase, I never realised that some of the victims had been eaten or partially eaten; that very much moves them into the maneater catagory!Do you know if the individual cats concerned were accounted for? Regards, Pete | |||
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Pete, I'm not so sure about big cats myself. From a selfish point of view I hate what they do to the deer. Here are some true stats about the roe cull in Varmland (sweden) Cull pre lynx introduction 18,000 Cull post lynx introduction - in the region of 4,000 An adult lynx eats around 60 roe per year. The last survey showed around 325 adults. Roe hunting in Varmland will cease to exist in 5years time. It should be said that an increase in foxes post sarcoptic mange might also have an effect. Whilst not quite so devestating the effect of wolves on moose is also great, not least because you can't hunt moose with dogs when wolves are around because they eat the dogs. These are great animals but there was a reason why we nearly made them extinct - they do bad things. | |||
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1894, I can see where your coming from and I do agree to a large degree.I enjoy shooting charlie and it certainly helps the farmers, but i would hate to see the last one go.. It makes me smile when I hear about people wanting to reintroduce the wolf to Scotland stating it will keep the red deer under control whilst ignoing all those wooly maggots up there! I wonder what the problem is in Sweden? Contrast to the big Parks in Africa where the cats are protected but there is still plenty of game... The problems I would foresee in the UK would occur if the cats were heavily protected..like deer they will need managing, if they exist of course!.... Regards, Pete | |||
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The DFG maintains a network of hound hunters, I believe, that they call in whenever there is a serious cougar incident. In both of the fatal attacks the cougars were (DNA indentification on the stomach contents?) hunted down and destroyed. Another dirty little secret that the Mountain Lion Protection batties hate to have spread around is that every time a cougar gets in to the suburbs and is captured, it is NOT released into the wild. If it was, the bigger, stronger cat that was already there would kill it. Instead, they are simply put down. All the cougar habitat in the state (and probably the entire West) is occupied. Any big kitty that is out in people country was pushed there by meaner members of its own species. The DFG thinks they should be managed like the prime game animal they are. Urban snivelers have managed to prevent this logical step. | |||
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quote:This sounds like the old rubbish told by the poltical correct predator-huggers and politicians here in Sweden. There are considerable problem with big predators as lynx and wolf in big parts of Sweden. However, as these beasts are protected, they can eat out the roes from great areas. 1894 has given the numbers for the Vermland region, but the situation is as severe north of a fictive line between Stockholm and Oslo. (Only at the swedish side.) I am member of a hunting team with an revier (hunting ground?) north of Oerebro. We have about 1000 acres (450 hektar), and ten years ago we could shoot two roes each, i.e. 12 roes in the entire revier, without reducing the population. Today you can ski over the revier without finding a single track of roe. But there are lynxes and wolves, of which the population has nearly exploded the last five years. In Vermland, to which 1894 not only the number of roes have been reduced by predators, but also the population of elk ("moose" in N.A.)has been remarkably reduced there and in othre areas with wolf populations. This has nothing to do with the climate. It is quite simple: all animals eat. Predators eat roes and other animals. If there are many lynxes enough, there will be no roes left. If I eat enough, the fridge will be empty. The problem is not the predators: they could be effectively culled, as they do in Norway. The big problem is the main stream political correctness in Sweden. Anyone putting the official political course in environmental questions and especially regarding big predators, will be set under hard criticism and regarded as political lunatic. I�m tired of all that. Fritz | |||
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Relax, Fritz! I don't think you are correct if you say climate has no effect on wildlife densities. Better climate means more food = more animals. That doesn't change just because you have predators. Areas with better climate, more productive soil and predators will still have more animals than areas with bad climate, soil and predators. I know very well that wolves and lynx have caused moose and roe to decline rapidly in many areas. But it is still so that roe isn't very well adapted to the climate in most parts of sweden. Just look at their hooves and what they eat, they just don't like long winters no matter what. Also, the roe cull statistics doesn't look very good for V�rmland, but remember that you have had a similar decline in most parts of Sweden. Ten years ago roe numbers were peaking and since then, even in areas without large predators, the roe numbers have gone down considerably for several different reasons. I would very much like to see that we get to shoot wolves and more lynx and bears in Sweden. But that won't happen if hunters use incorrect facts when arguing. | ||
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quote:When I said that it wasn�t a climate question, I should have added the word "mainly", as I do not deny the effects of climate - we can�t of course get an east african wildlife in Sweden. However, I still mean that the climate in great part of Sweden allows a better roe deer population than today. Ten years or so ago, we had a real peak, but the difference during the last years is remarkable, and we haven�t had a climate change in the winters. Perhaps we had to many roes then, but now we have too less. What are facts in this diskussion? The political correct opinion, or the experiences of a lot of hunters? And Vermland is not as I said the only region in this category: the regions Oerebro, Dalarna, V�stmanland, and parts of Uppsala could easily and honestly be added. Fritz [ 08-11-2003, 09:25: Message edited by: Fritz Kraut ] | |||
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Fritz, I do agree with you that the roe numbers are way too low in many parts of Sweden. And you are probably in the worst area of Sweden. Too far north to get lots of wolves and lynx and yet too far south to be in the reindeer grazing area (where wolf and, to some extent, lynx is nonexistant). | ||
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quote:You wrote it: the worst area. It can�t be worse then it has been the last five or six years. Luckily, the black grouse and the capercaille have had strong populations the last three years. Also fine game for stalking with a light rifle. Best regards, Fritz | |||
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quote:where coincidentaly the Sami (sp) live? ![[Wink]](images/icons/wink.gif){kind=icon} ![[Big Grin]](images/icons/grin.gif){kind=icon} | |||
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Indeed. The people with silly hats are notorios predator killers. Poison, gas and helicopters are commonly used. /HerrBerg | |||
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quote:Mr Berg, did you write that quite seriously? Fritz | |||
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The hats the sami use do really look extremely silly, there's no point denying it. Regards, /HerrBerg | |||
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quote:Perhaps the hats are sillylooking, but what about "Poison, gas and helicopters are commonly used"? That�s too much!!! Some people by samic origin may be offended - as I am a bit, because I have som relatives of samic origin. Best regards, Fritz [ 08-12-2003, 23:14: Message edited by: Fritz Kraut ] | |||
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Let's change my position from "this is fact" to "this is my firm belief" if you wish. I've been told one thing or two too much, when no other people have been around, to doubt the accuracy of my statement. How does it come that the wolves seem so hesitant to settle in reindeer territory? Beats me. I do not, however, imply that sami blood in one's veins makes one a poacher. Neither have the sami monpoly on poachery and mindless killing of predators - there are far too many non-sami Swedes doing that too. But would you like to differ on my opinion when I say that predators are most commonly treated like pests in sami eyes? Regards, /HerrBerg [ 08-12-2003, 23:20: Message edited by: HerrBerg ] | |||
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quote:Pete: I apologize I am just seeing your response to my post earlier. I will submit some information and let you make up your own mind, but this is what motivates my opinion on them. According to Fish and Wildlife Dept here in Oregon, they figure that an average adult cougar will kill at least a deer a day just for food, they are not vegetarians. That is 365 plus deer per year for each little furry cougar we have running around our "immense" forests here by English standards. These animals have very quickly decimated so much of the deer populations and their territories are migrating closer to towns. Here in Southern Oregon, towns are not growning and infringing on the cougars ranges. 8 yrs ago a cougar got into a farmers pasture at night. The field bordered Interstate 5 on the city limits of a town with 60,000 people. That night it MAULED 60 plus sheep. It did not kill a one just to eat, It mauled them all, and left them. It came back the next morning and the farmer saw it and shot it. The animal rights activists were in his driveway before noon demanding his arrest. Some people raise Llamas around here,( I don't know why, but they do). A guy here in town had one a night go missing for 4 days. These animals weigh 400 lbs. All four were found up in trees dragged up there by a cougar to eat. They have even attacked horses and cattle. One was killed north of here by a horse kicking it once he shook the cougar off of its back. A lady at a store several miles from my home saw one go into her backyard one afternoon. She had a chicken coop for eggs on her small property, and her two kids were also playing in their sandbox on the side of the house. She did not know if the cougar was going after the two small kids ( 3 and 5) or after the chicken coop. She ran into the bedroom to get her husbands shotgun. As she did, her Rottweiler caught a whiff of the cougar and went right thru the sliding glass door to the deck. When she got outside, the children were crying, the Rottweiler was standing over a dead 4 yr old adult male cougar that weighed about 125lbs, wagging what little tail a Rottweiler has. ( I would have bet on the cougar over the dog, but evidently not a Rottweiler!) They attacked and killed 4 goats in a pen a mile from my sons school, in 4 nights, one a night. It was thought the work of one cougar, but instead after one was killed, several more goats disappeared. A second cougar was shot. Hikers and hunters have been attacked by these animals. The stupid anti media, will report a cougar being killed but won't report a cougar attacking a person unless the victim was killed. This isn't africa, a cougar is not an animal off of Disney's " The Lion King", it kills domestic livestock and has gone after and killed mothers out jogging in California. In my book the best one is still a dead one.! If a Human was going around and killing and doing this sort of stuff, his fate would not even be an issue if caught! [ 08-13-2003, 09:10: Message edited by: seafire ] | |||
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Why don�t you call a poacher a poacher instead of mixing in unrelevant things? I give you right when you claim that a lot of wolfes are shot by poachers in north of Sweden. But not only there - poaching is said to be the moxt common cause of death among wolves in the entire country. Fritz | |||
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Fritz, Evidently in Sweden they don't consider any type of animal a pest. In the USA we shoot prairie dogs also, and sage rats, and coyotes. That must be considered poaching in Sweden. Either that or you must be one of the animal rights activists. Where were these self righteous Idiots and their protesting when a cougar mauled 60 sheep? Or has attacked hikers and people just jogging. Are domestic animals, livestock and people not on the " politically correct" list of the animal rights People. Maybe we can start some socialist fund and round them up and import them to Sweden and your neighborhood then we can see how much killing one, you would call poaching. Once again, people making laws and opinions about what they think, on matters that do not effect their world one bit. Sort of like me complaining and stating what people should be doing in Sweden, according to my perspective 5,000 miles away. Sounds sort of idiotic doesn't it?? ![[Confused]](images/icons/confused.gif){kind=icon} | |||
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quote:FritzKraut was merely pointing out that poaching is not the phrase to use (certainly in the UK poaching is only used in regard to taking deer/game on land that you have no right to do so. Shooting deer out of season etc is just acting illegaly and not poaching unless on someone else's land). He was also pointing out that the Sami don't have a monopoly on shoot,shovel and shut up. I think it's a bit rich to accuse him of being an animal rights activist because he upholds the law in his country. | |||
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quote:Not to mention when he's already claimed to have sami blood in his veins. /HerrBerg P.S. Sorry Fritz, I just couldn't resist... D.S. | |||
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1894, thank you for pointing out an Incorrectness about my statement to Herr Fritz. I have re read some of the posts above, and it is clear he is not an animal rights activists. I took reference to People killing cougars as poaching. Killing a cougar is not what I consider poaching. Upholding the law, is a thing I use to believe in with no hesitation. However, we now live in a world that laws get changed from people who have no point of reference, just an opinion. Laws get passed, because a lot of people live in cities, and these Peace/Animal Rights activists out number others and pass these types of laws. Hunting cougars with Dogs were allowed in Oregon, until a few years ago. This allowed effective curtailing of their growth. Man alone is not good enough to hunt cougars without help. However we got influx of people from Californias cities who move up here and get these laws passed with the help of our city Liberals. Cougars present no problem to their world. However it is perfectly alright from their perspective to pass laws and dictate what farmers should be doing in rural Oregon, with no point of reference of what they are talking about. However, watch the same peoples reaction if farmers from Rural Oregon got laws passed that effected the city people's lives. I have lived in England for 3 yrs, albeit a long time ago. However, it is akin to people in London passing laws that effect the people in Northern Scotland only. Would those Scot farmers and people like it? I doubt it. What would Londoners say when the people in Northern Scotland, passed laws that said the Londoners could not ride the subway from 10;30 am to 1 PM, or No cars on the Highway from those times? It is something that would effect Londoners but not the people in No Scotland, why should they care. When any predator is killing livestock, or even worse, just mutilating it, and killing 350 to 400 deer per year, and is caught attacking people instead of avoiding them, I don't care what the laws say. Laws once had a basis in common sense. Now they are based on political correctness as some 'self professed Liberal" sees it. Guess that is not exclusively an American problem. To Herr Fritz, please accept my apology. After I get acknowledgment that you have read this, I will very happily edit or delete my post, as I went off half cocked with out reading some of your previous posts that clearly show you are not what I accused you of being. As an footnote, I don't think many people here in the USA know what a " sami" is. I sure don't. Thanks to both of you gentlemen. | |||
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Seafire, I believe that you'll have no problems with Fritz. He's a helluva guy and I even think he'll forgive me the backstab I just gave him... eventually | |||
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Seafire, Sorry I have only just read your reply... I am not looking at these problems through Disney coloured glasses and I do acknowledge that Preditors such as cougars can be and are a problem; a problem that is growing and getting more serious in some areas. However, I still believe there is a place for animals such as cougars and lynx and I also believe tthe world would be a poorer place without them. What I object to is the notion that these animals must either be exterminated completely or protected completey; I believe that through careful managment via controled hunting and trapping, their numbers and impact can be kept at tolerable levels. From what I read, I believe that situation existed in various States before certain forms of control were either prohibited or the animals themselves protected completely.. Regards, Pete | |||
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quote:Hallo again! I don�t have a drop of sami blood in my veins, but some very close relatives have. That�s the reason for my words. And I think that our laws are really BAD considering predators. When the predatorhuggers crave 500 wolves in Sweden, I say yes - if the wolves have been at the taxidermist before. Mr Berg and Seafire, I�m not angry with any of you. ![[Roll Eyes]](images/icons/rolleyes.gif){kind=icon} Fritz P:S: I�ll give Mr Berg some malivolent backstab another day. | |||
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En ung forsker (Kvinnelig) gjorde noen seri�se unders�kelser av p�standen om at samer skytter alt av rovdyr. Hun hadde v�rt i de samiske omr�dene i Nord-Norge og Nord-Sverige. Hun hadde ikke funnet noen tegn p� krypskyting eller spesielt rovdyrhat. Ikke hadde hun sett noen rovdyr heller. Spesielt jerv som har et reindreper rykte uten sidestykke interesserte henne. En dag hun var i fjellet traff hun to samer(Skikkelig Fjellfinn). Siden hun ikke hadde sett jerv spurte hun dem, hvor stor er egentlig en jerv? Nja, te vett jeg ikke sa den ene. Men te g�r to i en vanlig s�ppelsekk. ![[Smile]](images/icons/smile.gif){kind=icon} All killing of game outside season is poaching in my eyes. Johan [ 08-15-2003, 18:02: Message edited by: 308winchester ] | |||
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Perhaps a bit off subject but I see references to "German #1", etc re the scopes being used - can anyone send a website that will show these various types of scope reticules? Regards, | ||
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GENTLEMEN There is no reason to be rude, name calling or smearing anyone for their heretage. There is a difference of haveing two opinions or belives and make personal assaults. My expreince is that you will meet both good and not soo good persons regardless of skinn color, religion, roots etc. / JOHAN | ||
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So far I consider the tone in this thread isn�t very rude. Everybody seemes to respect eatch others opinion more or less. I have to admit that my experiences with samis and predators is more or less in the line of Herr Bergs. I�m far from an expert in this area but the lack of big predators in the areas that the samis keep their reindeers kind of speak for it self..... Here in Sweden we have a "new" population of wolfes that "turned up" in a area that don�t have any sami population or reindeers...... There have been a court case involving a reindeerkeeper that chase a wolverine down with a snowmobile and killed it with a axe. A guy got it all on a roll of film with his camera. The case was put down due to "lack of evidence"........ A reindeerkeeper stated on national television that he have, and will, killed big predators to protect his reindeers. I�m pretty convinced that the sami people handle the "predator problem" by them selfe and things end there! Stefan | |||
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I gather that a "Sami" is what we refer to as a Laplander? Pete E: I am not for extinction of any animal. However it has gotten to the point that these cougars are a major problem. They definitely upset an ecosystem, when they are unchecked. Coyotes are less a problem unless you are a domestic animal or a farmer. In the western USA their natural range, they weigh about 30 lbs or so, maybe 40. However their range has spread to the far eastern part of the US, to Georgia and Maine. The farther east they go, the less natural enemies they have and their size can become quite a bit larger. Coyotes are scavengers. However, even tho they kill deer and other animals, in the Eastern USA, they are not having a decline in deer population, but a major boom, since people do not hunt them as in the past. Cougars in Oregon and a lot of the western USA were not a real problem until they could no longer be hunted with dogs, as the animal rights activists felt it was too " cruel". Mr 308, I respect your allegiance to your laws and will not shoot something out of season. I do not convey that an animal should be shot out of a season. However, when they are killing a farmers livestock, and are even attacking people ( California had one on a golf course a few years ago, of course the "liberal media" could not be bothered with covering something like that). However, when I see a killer, whether animal or human, if I can contribute to its demise, I will be happy to do so. There is a difference between animals having to eat, versus getting to the point that they decimate other species. What kills me is that if a Fish was introduced that would wipe out a lot of other species of fish, no one who question its eradication. However when it comes to animals, the politically correct crowd comes out of the wood work. It is not as Trendy for them to be involved with Fish evidently. In Oregon, our "Save the Salmon" crowd ( they must think it is a Politically Correct fish") are the city people. Most probably could not pick out a Salmon from the rest of the fish in a fish tank. However they sure could pick one on a plate at a 4 star restaurant. Hypocrits in my book. ![[Razz]](images/icons/tongue.gif){kind=icon} | |||
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Selfdefense, either you or your animals is ofcourse okay. Wounded animals should be put down regardles to season, and also when the state culled a wolf pack in Norway it was okay. But I know sheep farmers here shot eagles on sight, all kinds of predators are regarded as pests agains both farm animals, hunting and hunting dogs. I think this is lack of respect to nature and also agains the law. I preffer to stick to the leagal side of the law. Johan (Har forresten litt finnblod sj�l) | |||
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