Hi guys,
Peter's posts about using a local sweisshound handler to help find his dead roe deer got me thinking. I know that more and more UK stalkers are training their dogs to blood trail deer (though standards do vary).

Do you see a UK organisation being set-up to put these dog handlers' services out locally on a voluntary basis? Like a road traffic accident, they would only come if it were convenient for them. In additino, they would be reimbursed for their expenses....

Just a thought, but it might work well, especially down South where access isn't an issue and there is a high density of deer stalkers. Would also do great things for the image of deer stalking.

Makes sense to me! , I want to eventually own & work a Teckel, Steve.

Something BASC or BDS could get behind maybe?

Be O.K. if it were the former, Boggy

By the way, everytime I take another look at your Boar trip I feel like I'm in a nice gunshop with a couple of empty slot's on my ticket & no money, please cease & desist forthwith!

hi guy's

this is the danish version:

http://www.schweiss.dk/page13.aspx

i really like the way this is done, it's just a nice security blanket, when you need it, and they also do traffic accidents.

best regards

peter

quote:

Originally posted by peterdk:
hi guy's

this is the danish version:

http://www.schweiss.dk/page13.aspx

i really like the way this is done, it's just a nice security blanket, when you need it, and they also do traffic accidents.

best regards

peter

Very interesting and informative read,Thanks, Steve.

I guess it also relies on people not being paranoid about people 'stealing' their stalking or stories about their bad shots getting spread.

Still a good idea if there is sufficient coverage of trained (and willing!) dogs and handlers.

This is the website of the Belgian tracking dogs handlers.

http://users.skynet.be/abucs/index.html

Due to my arrogant forebears I only speak English, is there an English version?, Steve.

I believe Stone over on the Stalking Directory Forum is in the process of trying to set up such an organision....

quote:

Originally posted by Boghossian:


Do you see a UK organisation being set-up to put these dog handlers' services out locally on a voluntary basis?

Unfortunately i can not see any way forward for any organisation that wants to set up any sort of register for the use of tracking dogs for the use of finding wounded or dead animals except if human based

just remember that some countries allow you lawfull access across any land in search of a wounded deer england and wales does not ,scotland does but with implications
that is why the schweiss register works well in other countries, but you also hav to go through a series of working tests and win these tests to get on such a register
unfortunately the way some people want to work their dogs in the uk will not meet such criteria of these tests so it will only be dedicated dog handlers that are willing to train a dog to track properly will get a chance
as for BASC and BDS they will give you some support but not really a great help as they already know how much red tape there is and cost just to set such a scheme up , but still you then need to change the law to allow it to become workable, that is the key
can't see that happening in the near future as there will never be enough support just objection and not just from the anti's
not sure if schweiss uk website is still up and running , but they had the backing and guidance of every major shooting organisation and high profile stalkers throughout the uk, trhat should of worked but never got any further because of the legalities and cost
but if stalkers united more then friendly groups will often provide thier own little services of thier own , in thier own little areas that does work but not ideal

quote:

Originally posted by Richard E:

quote:

Originally posted by Boghossian:


Do you see a UK organisation being set-up to put these dog handlers' services out locally on a voluntary basis?

Unfortunately i can not see any way forward for any organisation that wants to set up any sort of register for the use of tracking dogs for the use of finding wounded or dead animals except if human based

just remember that some countries allow you lawfull access across any land in search of a wounded deer england and wales does not ,scotland does but with implications
that is why the schweiss register works well in other countries, but you also hav to go through a series of working tests and win these tests to get on such a register
unfortunately the way some people want to work their dogs in the uk will not meet such criteria of these tests so it will only be dedicated dog handlers that are willing to train a dog to track properly will get a chance
as for BASC and BDS they will give you some support but not really a great help as they already know how much red tape there is and cost just to set such a scheme up , but still you then need to change the law to allow it to become workable, that is the key
can't see that happening in the near future as there will never be enough support just objection and not just from the anti's
not sure if schweiss uk website is still up and running , but they had the backing and guidance of every major shooting organisation and high profile stalkers throughout the uk, trhat should of worked but never got any further because of the legalities and cost
but if stalkers united more then friendly groups will often provide thier own little services of thier own , in thier own little areas that does work but not ideal

Might be something to work with!, Be interesting to ballot/poll any willing parties?

There are members of this board that have had a tremendous impact on my training of my latest Lab pup. My son is into field trial, hunt tests, and duck hunting and is training his second Lab for that purpose, but I eat, sleep, and drink deer and hog hunting. Thanks to reading post on here of using tracking dogs, I decided to train my pup to blood trail. It is a very addictive hobby. My pup, Annie, was a year old on April 15, and she has already found a hog 16 hours after he was shot and several deer that crossed creeks and other hazards.

To those of you who are avid hunters, I highly recommend getting and training your own tracking dog.

quote:

Originally posted by Jeff Sullivan:
There are members of this board that have had a tremendous impact on my training of my latest Lab pup. My son is into field trial, hunt tests, and duck hunting and is training his second Lab for that purpose, but I eat, sleep, and drink deer and hog hunting. Thanks to reading post on here of using tracking dogs, I decided to train my pup to blood trail. It is a very addictive hobby. My pup, Annie, was a year old on April 15, and she has already found a hog 16 hours after he was shot and several deer that crossed creeks and other hazards.

To those of you who are avid hunters, I highly recommend getting and training your own tracking dog.

The dogs expression for me on centre pic says "if your'e good I'll let you have your photo taken with my hog"

quote:

Originally posted by Pete E:
I believe Stone over on the Stalking Directory Forum is in the process of trying to set up such an organision....

For the reasons already stated by Richard it will never get past the front gate.

The lack of a proficient follow dog is a common enough failing of the recreational stalker. Trying to put some fail safe back up in place is a step to the side of the issue and a step in the wrong direction.

If the proposed DCS deer shooters license system ever gets off the ground, hopefully one of the requirements will be the ownership of a trained deer dog.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jeff Sullivan:





Nice looking lab you have there Jeff.

Congratulations on your hard work.

"To those of you who are avid hunters, I highly recommend getting and training your own tracking dog."

Never a truer word has been posted on this subject. You would never consider going duck shooting without having a good dog available but there are many who go deer hunting with out one. Go figure!

Some interesting views, glad to hear people are trying to set something up despite the obvious difficulties. I didn't think it would be a full 'European style' group enshrined in legislation and with enhanced rights to cross boundaries, rather just a list of people who were willing to help once the solo stalker reached a dead end.

Luminere, I can see that nearly everyone that now has a trailing dog cannot imagine hunting without one. I live in Central London so a dog is definitely out, but I also shoot a heck of a lot of deer all year long. I personally would be against compulsory licensing (another discussion completely) and the compulsory ownership of a trailing dog. It is just impossible for some of us, better to have access to a helping hand if/when the worst case scenario does occur. I myself haven't had a proper runner for nearly two years, so don't see the pressing need for a dog regardless.

No doubt a formally trained team (handler & dog) in blood tracking is the very best but, except for the real difficult missions (non lethal wound, bad weather, difficult terrain, time elapsed, etc.), one can develop and encourage the natural qualities of some dogs. This was the case with Czar, my (now, 6 years old) Lab, who grew up amidst a good population of Roedeer and developed an "addiction" to them. Today, I take him with me most of the time and -except on hot summer evenings- leave him in the car while I go to a near highseat. Often, animals don't leave cover until sundown and this means I often don't get a shot until it's nearly dark. If the animal doesn't drop in its tracks and jumps back in the woods, it might get difficult. Waiting 20-30' before following up means that night is about to fall and that it's already pretty dark down there. Even if the deer is not far away, it's very easy to walk past without finding him in the dark. That's when Czar comes into play and the deer is found quicky. The best tracking he did so far was last season when he found a wounded, but still living, doe 14 H after the shot. The tracking took us 300 m far though dense bushes and ended with Czar throwing his 100 lbs. mass against the departing doe and pinning her down until I could bring my knife to work. Needless to say, I was mighty proud of my companion...
Here are some of Czar's achievements :

Great pics Andre.

Great looking Lab, Andre!

Boghossian

I congratulate you on your skill and restraint. If it is as you say that you shoot a lot of deer all year round and haven't had a proper runner for nearly 2 years. But as sure as eggs are eggs one day you will find yourself with a wounded deer lost in the dark and the need to be back in the city office at 8 the following morning with no helping hand available. Not a situation I would like to find myself in. Do your fellow central london residents not own dogs? I have a stalking pal who lives in a flat in a small town. He has owned very capable deer finding terriers for the last 11 years. Not all deer dogs are Labs and GWP's.

As I posted in my reply to Jeff, responsible sportsmen wouldn't go duck shooting without the services off a decent dog yet there are many who are happy to go deer hunting with out one.

Voluntary schemes are extremely limited in their effectiveness. With the willing horses often being flogged to death. I see compulsory training and the compulsory ownership or at least the compulsory availability of a trailing dog of a given measurable standard an inevitability. How else are we as recreational stalkers going to demonstrate to that huge number of uninformed voting public that we are proficient enough, equipped enough and prepared enough to be allowed to kill deer. The right to hunt is seen by many as a privilege not as a birth right. Privileges are won or brought and privileges are protected. Compulsory training and licensing will be the game we will have to win and the price we will have to pay in order to retain our rights to kill deer. You can stir up the batter with flowery language and call our activities stalking, hunting, culling, managing. At the end of the day we kill deer.

Andre

You too have a good looking Lab. At 100lbs he's a big fella.

Lum, what breed is your deer dog? Can you stick up a couple pics?
Cheers
Gabriel

Wounding an amimal is the worst case for every hunter.
A specialized dog (Schweisshund) is the only way to go.

Fortunatelly we are in a very comfortable situation in Germany.
We have "Schweisshundstationen", that means, if you wound an animal
and do not have a own dog, we contact this specialist. There is no
hunting place in Germany without the possibility to contact one of this stations.
The service is free - ok a bag of beer as a tip.

Most of these stations have Hannoverian Schweisshunde.
Funnny situation, if you wound a roe deer, they refuse
to take the Hannoverian (the argument ist roe blood
ruins the dog`s nose. I think in history the roe allways was
the "poor men`s deer" for the farmers, the red deer was for the
nobility.
There are only 3 dog breeds permitted to become an approved "Schweisshund"

http://www.bayerische-gebirgss...isshunde.de/home.php

http://www.hannoverscherschwei...nd.de/aktuelles.html

http://www.alpenlaendische-dachsbracke.de/

Generall informations about German hunting dogs.
Only this breeds can take part of the huntig dog examination.

http://www.jagd.it/hunde/rassen.html


Burkhard

Thanks, I admit being quite proud of Czar. I picked him out, knowing he was the boss of the litter and, being forewarned, I educated him accordingly. He became a powerful and dominant male, but not agressive at all. Often, when confronted with another provoking male, his (impressive) showing off is enough to calm down the opponent. He's big and heavy with more muscle than fat and he always "makes the show" when he retrieves a roedeer, dragging him along, "leopard style".

In my little country we are under obligation to at all times when hunting have a trail dog available with in two hours,

this of cours is pointless since I could go fetch grandma Bakers old barker and comply buth that is not the way it´s done for the most part here in Sweden.

There are always teams ready, I now have three on speed dial should something go awry,

one of the dogs is actually a traling/baying boar dog, always a good thing when there is a gut shot boar in the thickest of thickets and dark as you know where.

The laws have just been passed here in Sweden were the teams actually will get paid to do the traffic accident stuff, prior it was all volontary done by hunters that are good at it and motivated wanting more practice, sort of like a training camp since road collissions occur all year round.

I mean after all, it´s just a matter of time before one has one that got away,

with boars, well that is a whole different story really.

Best regards and yes there are som good looking dogs in this thread, perhaps Herr Berg will pass by, he has a great dog.

/Chris

quote:

Originally posted by Boghossian:
Lum, what breed is your deer dog? Can you stick up a couple pics?
Cheers
Gabriel

Gabs

He's just your basic black lab. Sorry no photo's I have a phone camera but don't know how to load photo's on to the PC let alone post them to a web site. It takes me long enough just to type out posts with out adding photos.

He is very similar to Jeffs Lab but black.

quote:

I mean after all, it´s just a matter of time before one has one that got away,

Chris

Exactly the point I was hoping to make. If you get out enough and shoot enough eventually one is going to take off for the next county on you.

Only this winter I had to help find a botched head shot doe that had disappeared into 9O acres of dense forestry. Me and the dog found her the following morning tucked into the bottom of some rhoadies barely alive but alive with her bottom jaw hanging off. The dog held her whilst I delivered the fatal cut with a knife.

I was well pleased as he's still a young dog and had tracked her really well and it was the first time he'd been asked to hold a deer. To say I was happy with him just doesn't do him justice.

they come in all shapes and sizes, my new one who is a pain in the a** at the moment, due to sexual maturity setting in.
but he does do good work, when his brain is up to it.


best

peter

edited for size

Piccies
i luv piccies
got to hav the obligatory pic with the dog
here are a few of my little girl





ATB

Peter and Richard

Nice looking dogs.

Andre

Wow! Czar is literally twice the size of Annie. She only weighs about 40 lbs.

Here is a picture of my old tracking dog, Sugar. She will be 14 in October and is stone deaf, but she is overall in excellent health.

Jeff - Your 14 year-old looks fantastic. My 8 year-old chocolate has more gray hair than her, but then, she's a worrier.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Luminere:
responsible sportsmen wouldn't go duck shooting without the services off a decent dog yet there are many who are happy to go deer hunting with out one.

QUOTE]
luminere
i get your way of thinking but feel you hav missed the whole point of the thread
Boghossian as orignialy posted this in regards as he does not hav a deer dog or not likely to be able to get one due to his living arrangements
it is not ideal i agree but not a crime either, but Gabriel was more than interested in such a set up in the UK as other countries hav in regards to being able to call on some one who has a trained dog for tracking just in-case
as for you hoping the DCS proposing all stalkers hav a trained deer dog is ludicrous, but having acess to one is not
but that will only cover scotland what about the rest of the UK???
i for one would like to hear more of your experiences in using a dog for finding wounded deer as you sound like you know what you are talking about+ plus you use a lab
what is it's breeding??

quote:

Originally posted by Cazador humilde:
Jeff - Your 14 year-old looks fantastic.

could not agree more
14 and still fit enough to track if asked too
we hav a 12 year old Black lab bitch still able to do a full days picking up on game but chose to just keep her to half days last season even though she disagrees , this year we will start to retire her but stll give her the odd retrieve as she is capable of it

quote:

Originally posted by Richard E:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Luminere:
responsible sportsmen wouldn't go duck shooting without the services off a decent dog yet there are many who are happy to go deer hunting with out one.

QUOTE]
luminere
i get your way of thinking but feel you hav missed the whole point of the thread
Boghossian as orignialy posted this in regards as he does not hav a deer dog or not likely to be able to get one due to his living arrangements
it is not ideal i agree but not a crime either, but Gabriel was more than interested in such a set up in the UK as other countries hav in regards to being able to call on some one who has a trained dog for tracking just in-case
as for you hoping the DCS proposing all stalkers hav a trained deer dog is ludicrous, but having acess to one is not
but that will only cover scotland what about the rest of the UK???
i for one would like to hear more of your experiences in using a dog for finding wounded deer as you sound like you know what you are talking about+ plus you use a lab
what is it's breeding??

Richard

I don't think I've missed the point. All that I have done is widened the scope of the discussion.
As for not being able to have a dog due to living arrangements. We all know that where there is a will there is a way.e.g. I have a mate who uses his brothers dog whenever he goes stalking. He has trained the dog but it is his brothers who has no interest in stalking but loves dogs.

Agreed non dog ownership is not a crime but it does impose certain levels of restraint upon the dogless stalker that are greater than those placed upon the dog owning stalker. We all know what can happens in the heat of the moment when those fleeting opportunity to take a particular buck or stag presents its self or when the need to cull a hind and calf to make the cull target after a weeks of incessant wind rain arises.

I fail to see why the hope of improving stalkers abilities and their preparedness for the unexpected is to be considered ludicrous. The fact that the DCS proposal would only cover scotland does not make it any the less relevant or any the less appealing. oping that some half baked voluntary scheme is going to be the panacea to all of the dogless recreational stalkers now that is ludicrous.

I have always had a game finding dog some originally where dual purpose being used for picking up and deer finding. Latterly I have switched to having just a dog or dogs for picking up and a specific dog for deer finding. It just works better for me that way. The deer dog never gets switched on to hunting game. Well thats the theory anyway. I'm not into paying mega bucks for FTCh winning dogs, I prefer stock from good steady proven working lines. My current deer dog is not even KC registered, neither his dam or sire were either.

I try to train my dogs using the methods learnt for an ex police inspector and police dog trainer I use to shoot with. I was also lent the following book Tracking Dog Theory and Methods and have found it a great source of invaluable help. I just adapt the methods to my needs. I'm happy to use any method that produces the results I need, preferring to adapt the training to the dog rather than have the dog try to adapt to a particular training method. Canine training is not a one size fits all fix.

quote:

Originally posted by Luminere:
oping that some half baked voluntary scheme is going to be the panacea to all of the dogless recreational stalkers now that is ludicrous.

Well the guy who set this scheme up never thought so
http://www.deersearch.org/

and that seems to be working

different from the swcheiss scheme but same goal surely a better option than forcing evey stalker/hunter to posses a dog even if they may not be able to look after or train a dog properly, a dog's welfare has to be taken into consideration too.....

including the breeding side of things as it might just be that every stalker/hunter on reflection of cost or availability will turn to any sort of breed or breeding just so they can say they hav a dog for tracking so they are not persucuted for not having a dog whilst pursuing their chosen passion

you also say you dog is from good steady proven working lines,
how can you tell, if neither your dog or it's dam or sire were not registered
and i can only presume one or both of the dam's or sire's parents may not of been registerd either so not realy much proof there either,
that any of the dogs have come from good breeding stock or even not been interbred along the way
what about hip and eyes or genetic defects
surely these also must be a consideration when buying or breeding good working stock ??

Hey Lumey, I think you need a new keyboard!

Gents,

Please see the sticky post at the beginning of the Forum and try to size the photos accordingly.

Posting huge photos is a killer for the people of here who still use dial up not to mention the space/bandwidth it wastes.

Also on a similar note can people not constantly "quote" pages and pages of replies. This especially, with repeated pictures, also slows down the forum for folks on dial up and adds nothing but to the forums other than making posts long winded.

Regards,

Peter

quote:

Originally posted by Luminere:
hoping that some half baked voluntary scheme is going to be the panacea to all of the dogless recreational stalkers now that is ludicrous.

luminere

thats how the danish sweisshound reg. got started.
Now as a sweisshound handler i can say that i think that the idea about making a law about all stalkers having to have a dog with them, makes me sit up straight and think that you might not have all that much experince with what you do claim you do.

when we are out speaking to the different hunting clubs we try to make it a polite point, that most handlers are not to thrilled about people walking all over the tracks from the deer and that includes their dogs, as however well meaning it is for them to try to sort out the track, it is another sent and they might tread on importent tracks that the handler could have as more of an indication of where the animal is shot and how to proceed from there.
and if you want to take it to the next level then your not proberly equipped for stalking without one of these.

they are for when the deer is shot in a leg,jaw etc. and run easyly, so you sneak in with the help of the dog, and shoot from the saddle.
oh and you need a 12 bore double rifle to proberly anchor the deer in its tracks.

all these things are nice to have, but its not for everyone to have them(or train them) as the lifestyle it demands takes a pretty big chunck out of your daylight hours.

please dont be so fast wanting laws regulating your every step, when a good private iniciative, can lead the way to a good solution.

best regards

peter

Be nice to see what reply comes in on that one!