A manic push on the roe doe cull together with some luck has meant a large number of roe does shot in a short space of time.

Due to a combination of range mis estimation, wind and multiples (one after the other) I happen to have shot about 4 high lung in the space of a few days

By this I mean high enough that no heart or major blood vessel is hit but low enough that the spine and aorta/vena cava are not hit nor the spine shocked. The lateral displacement being that the shoulder is not hit nor the diaphragm, liver or stomach - pure lung.

The results were uniformly a very poor/non existant blood trail and long (up to 100m) distances run. Expansion etc is not an issue. This is a poor shot to take if there are vegetation or boundary issues, if you add in adrenaline due to disturbance or aware deer adn you have quite a tracking job on your hands. No doubt we all know this but it really reinforces it when you get a run of them.

Finaly why one should allways follow up. I 'missed' a roe doe. I had very little time and I really really wanted her as her front half was very very white. I estimated 200m but at the shot felt that I was tending a bit high. There was no audible strike and no reaction to shot other than head up, a quick circle to hear where the noise came from and a walk off.

I was convinced I had missed high but came back after 20 minutes to check. Doe found by dog hit shot high lung. Bullet had gone between 2 ribs and the exit showed expansion but was not as big as normal as a result.... The lack of noise was strange perhaps due to not hitting bone?

I used to prefer shoulder shots for the instant demise they cause (problem is meat damage. On a broad standing shot, when you shoot through both shoulder blades in line, chances are you will also bust the spine in between. Sometimes the latter shatters and opens a gaping hole in the back with impressive meat loss). I never liked classic heart shots because they're a 50/50 proposition. If the bullet impacts the heart when full of blood (diastole), it will explode like a watermelon and collapsus is immediate. On the contrary, punch a hole through an empty heart (systole) and it will go on beating and pumping blood to the brain until the leak becomes too important. Coma will be delayed 8-12 seconds, during wich the animal can cover quite a distance. I'm presently working on a theory developed after consulting an anatomist, i.e. shooting for the aorta knot (location is a little more forward and higher than the heart itself, see "X" in picture below).

Blowing up the aorta knot shuts down blood supply to the brain at once, resulting in instantaneous coma. Meat damage is minimal as you're shooting through soft tissue, let alone an eventual rib. So far, I've successfully applied the theory to 8 deer. 8 don't make a law, I know, but results are worth investigating.

André,

quite an interesting explanation for a known phenomenon. I use to shoot the roe deer where the "10" is on the DJV roe deer target. This is more or less on top of the heart. Usually they drop on the spot, the heart is undamaged but severed from the arteries.

However, when hitting them a little low right into the heart which should, in the old theory, be even "deadlier", most of the times they run away.

I don't have any verifiable statistics to support it, but I suspect shots that are too high outnumber shots that are too low. I also suspect that there are more shots too far back than shots too far forward. I therefore take aiming, especially for longer ranges, at a mid thorax height on the horizontal plane and shoulder on the vertical plane. I am sure you are a better shot than I (because I am not that good) but I think I minimize the variables that way.

This takes me back to the first Roe buck I ever shot,Due to 'buck fever' I hit it high in the lungs.
There was no blood trail to speak of and the buck had made 170yds before I found it stone dead.It was quite a start to my stalking career.

All I know is that the original Mk1 1894 would never have pulled four shots like that!

Regards,

Pete

Pete,

I am maintaining my %!

By chance, I am shooting low most of the time ; that is bottom of the heart or low part of the lungs ………and sometimes sternum as well. It’s my shooting style, my signature even if I am not conscious of it.
It results that the game doen’t die on the spot but let flow plenty of blood. As the puncture in the chest is very low, the blood cannot collect itself in the chest cavity before flowing out.
In any case should my game outlive a couple of seconds, the blood trail is aweful.
Note that it’s good to spoil the meat. It’s not a money problem but kind of game respect. So we never consider shooting right trough the shoulders.
André you are absolutely right in shooting the aorta if you partners are not against meat spoiling.
DUK for everybody, I display the DJV Rehscheiben :
It seems this kind of target is driving You to shoot too far back? Nicht wahr?

OOPS!!!!!!!!!!! : less broken English

By chance, I am shooting low most of the time ; that is bottom of the heart or low parts of the lungs ………and sometimes sternum as well. It’s my shooting style, my signature even if I am not conscious of it.
It results that the game doesn’t die on the spot but lets flow plenty of blood. As the puncture in the chest is very low, the blood cannot collect itself in the chest cavity before flowing out.
In any case should my game outlive a couple of seconds, the blood trail is aweful.
Note that it’s bad to spoil the meat. It’s not a money problem but kind of game respect. So we never consider shooting right trough the shoulders.
André you are absolutely right in shooting the aorta if your partners are not against meat spoiling.
DUK for everybody, I display the DJV Rehscheiben :
http://www.6stern-meisterscheiben.com/shop/images/tb_4430.jpg
It seems this kind of target is leading You to shoot too far back? Nicht wahr?

quote:

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André you are absolutely right in shooting the aorta if your partners are not against meat spoiling.

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Jean, actually when the shot is placed right -in the aorta knot, i.e. in the middle of the triangle formed by the humerus and the scapula- you're wasting very little meat for the bullet goes through soft tissue only. Even a .300 Mag won't make an exit wound larger than 3-4 cm on roe.

BTW, I know Alsace rather well. My wife works in the E.P. and spends a week in Strasbourg every month during the sessions. I'm sometimes going along to play the tourist while she works and I have become a regular customer of the "Brasserie Kirn" and "Crocodile" in Strasbourg, both restaurants I heartily recommend.
Amicalement.

Dear André,
Yes the shot You are choosing may spare the shoulder muscles but one have to be very accurate. BTW should the shoulders be smashed, the meat could be sliced in small cubes. The roe meat is the best one can find to use in "Fondue Bourguignone". The meat cubes are dipped in boiling oil and then in different sauces "provencale, bourguignone, aioli, tex-mex, paprica, mayonnaise.." Nothing beat the roe meat.
I see you don't miss any high places in Strasbourg. I hope next time you'll let your wife ruling E.C. and bring your rifle along and join me for hunting and gastronomy.

My wife's already ruling home and considering her position about my frequent absences for hunting purposes, I'm not sure I'd let her decide hunting issues in Europe (or anywhere)
BTW, I never thought about using Roe meat in the "fondue bourguignonne" and it sounds like a great idea. Un grand merci, j'essaierai, c'est promis...

quote:

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Originally posted by jbderunz:
It seems this kind of target is leading You to shoot too far back? Nicht wahr?

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Not really. We were told and practized during the Jungjägerkurs to raise the scope recticle behind the front leg and to shoot at the middle of the rump. This way, you don´t get the legs but still hit in front of the diaphragm, if the shot angle is about 90 degrees.

In real life and especially when a little dark once in a while you do hit a leg or the bullet hits too far back and opens the stomach. If you gut and clean them fast, this is not a real problem, either.

JB thanks for posting the target. To me the scoring of the DJV target is all wrong.

The rear 9 clips the lungs liver and breaks the stomach if low

The 8 if high might catch the faintest hint of lung plus some liver but would be called a gut shot by my friends, if low you'll be wanting a fast expanding bullet to damage the liver.

The 7's and 6's should be minus points

Avoiding the shoulder is all very well but should the animal take a step in between the time your brains says shoot and your finger actualy squeezes then there is extra risk of a gut shot.

My absolute horror of leg shots means I would much rather aim half way up the chest.

Low shooting

Quote André : “My wife's already ruling home and considering her position about my frequent absences for hunting purposes »
André, you make me remember a wonderful Belgian (in fact in my life I met thousands of Belgians and absolutely all were nice, always at ease with them)during a hunting proficiency test (ANCGG) who told us that he is really too much hunting :
One evening he came home and ask his butler where his wife was.
A rich hunting fanatic.

1894mk2

I agree with You this roe deer target is a way to have fun with a target different from the black and white ones. One cannot consider it of any anatomical help.

OOPS SORRY


Quote André : “My wife's already ruling home and considering her position about my frequent absences for hunting purposes »


André, you make me remember a wonderful Belgian (in fact in my life I met thousands of Belgians and absolutely all were nice, always at ease with them)during a hunting proficiency test (ANCGG) who told us that he is really hunting too much.

One evening he came home and ask his butler where his wife was.
The butler answered “I fear You didn’t notice that Madame left You ten days agoâ€.
A rich hunting fanatic.

1894

I agree with You this roe deer target is a way to have fun with a target different from the black and white ones. One cannot consider it of any anatomical help.