Before I joined this site in about 1998 I had always thought that playing around with big bores was very much restricted to America and Australia.

However on the Big Bore forum there are several members from many of the European countries.

Just how often do you see rifles in Europe from say 375 H&H and up, way up. Are components for them easy to get.

And what about the hot small bores like 7mm STW, 7mm Ultra, 300 Ultra, 30/378, 338 Ultra and 338/378.

Mike

Mike, not really a big bore, but remember 9.3x62/9.3x74R are very popular here. Also one Swiss canton has a minimum 10.3mm (about 416 cal.?) restriction for any hunting!

In general when talking to European hunters, I would say they use larger calibres for equivalent game than what Aussies would. But other than 300 Win Mag, You're not likely to see many hot mediums from what I've observed.

Stu,

If these forums are a guide Australians who own a big bore are far more likley to use it than do Americans. Americans seem far more likely to use a calibre that is deemed as being "appropriate".

Australians who are not gun nuts seem to use very small calibres. However Australians who are gun nuts seem more inclined to go towards the big bore rather than the hot small bore like 300 Ultra etc. whereas Americans seem more likely to go for the hot smaller bore when moving away for the 270 or 30/06 zone.

Mike

Mike, time you're in bed isn't it?
I agree with what you say. Other than the Aussies from this and other forums - the rifle nuts - the great majority of Aussie hunters/shooters would be likely to pop a pig with a 222 and consider it enough gun, and would think that a 303 or 308 could take just about anything. Because Aussies are spoiled with that vast amounts of ferals we have available to shoot, there isn't the same emphasis on adequate fire power and respect for the game as in Europe, and probably the US as well. For us, if an animal doesn't drop within sight, then a lot of the time it's not followed up - there'll be plenty of others round the next corner!

But to get back to your original questions, I would think it most unusual for a European to hunt Red deer with, say, a 375 or up. Pigs may be an exception, as Europeans tend to give the buggers much more respect than I'm used to.

Stu,

I am heading to bed in about an hour.

I think our "high on volume low on quality" for animals is also why the Australian with a 458 or whatever will use that to blast stuff because each animal is not vital. On the other hand if you only had one shot and the shooting trip was based on shooting one animal then you might worry about the trajectory of the 458.

Mike

Mike,
I think that European situation for B.B. or hot calibers vary from country to country.
In Italy, for example, there is a recent discovery of the rifle as hunting gun for boar and big game. Before, except a little part of hunters, in Italy was practiced mostly wingshooting.
Hunters are buing semiauto, but use them as shotgun. There is also a misjudgment about calibers, in fact they often use very fast calibers in very thick bush.
Once I was in gun shop and the vendor was offering a Browning Bar in .300 WinMag scoped with a fixed 6x for wild boar hunting in Maremma, a very thick bushed Tuscanian area, where the longest shot is rarely 25 meters, with 2/4 seconds to aim and shoot.
More over,we don't have big game so big that big calibers are needed.

About other types of hunts, instead, hot calibers are actually increasing theyr importance. In chamois hunt for example, where over 300 meters shots are common.

Out of Italy I know that there are different hunting traditions, where rifle has always been used, but I am not so sure that Big Bores or hot calibers are so common, but for this opinion I leave the keybord to my European hunters friend and colleagues
bye

Mike,

There is no "European hunting". You have to look at it country by country.
But one general thing: there will be far more hunters than reloaders, wildcatters and other gun nuts.
Big bores exceeding .375 are not needed in Europe, and you rarely see one on a hunt or at the range.
But whoever wants to hunt dangerous game in Africa will own one.
The 9.3 mm calibers were not much used 20 years ago, but with the recent spread of wild boar in Germany they are very popular again.
The new American super magnums are not yet popular, and probably may never be. Our hunters (speaking for Germany) are in general rather conservative, happy with their medium cartridges (as they should be) and actually opposed to long range shooting.
The exception is mountain hunting. German and British gunsmiths created high velocity cartridges long before the Americans, and cartridges like 8x68S or 6.5x68 have a small but loyal fan club.

Fuhrmann

Yeah, as the other posters have pointed out, there is little which you can sensibly use a truely big bore for in Europe. There are exceptions of course, as Stu pointed out, the Kanton of Graub�nden in Switzerland prescribes a minimum of 10.3mm bullet diameter, so the .416 Rem has become quite popular there (still a pretty exotic round here, though). I was surprised to see how many of our Norvegian participants seemed to lust after big bore (the bigger the better, apparently) rifles. Not quite sure what the background is - just wanting the biggest gun, or whether they whale with the things...

Apart from that, big bore rifles in Europe is pretty much a "specialty" area, partly occupied by people who take their guns to Africa or elsewhere, partly by rifle nuts. Funnily enough, some of the gun rags seem to be pretty hooked on big bores (case in point: the German magazine "Jagen Weltweit"), so presumably there must enough of a market to sell this type of stories.

Otherwise, I think of Europe as a typical mid-caliber area, perhaps topping out somewhere around the 8x68S and the 9.3s (all generalizations, naturally )
- mike

stu,

...given the popularity of the 9.3 x 74r round in the eu, i was wondering how many 9.3 x 74r cartridge manufacturers there are on the continent/uk...

...here in the states, we are fairly well restricted to norma (and possibly rsw) as a 9.3 x 74r cartridge source...

...thanks for your thoughts...

te

TE, I think at least Norma, RWS, S&B and Hirtenberger would make one or more loadings for 9.3x74R.

...thanks for your thoughts, stu...

...as i noted earlier, unfortunately, we are pretty much limited to norma here in the states (even rws is hard to source)...

...that said, however, the norma ballistics for the 285 grain orxy (2362/3513 me/fps at muzzle) appear quite robust for nearly every hunting situation...

te

Hey, I just looked in my Kettner catalogue and found GECO, Blaser and Wolfgang Romey as well. But anyone who wants to shoot his rifle a bit had either be rich or will be starting to reload pretty quickly.

...that's quite a list of 9.3 cartridge suppliers...

...i wonder whether the ballistics of the other suppliers duplicate or even exceed the norma ballistics...

...a related question...would one be able to bump-up the fps figures for the 9.3 by handloading a lightly seated bullet?...is this even advisable for doubles?...

...tia...

te

te, I'm not a double man at all, but the main issue with doubles is their regulation. They are all designed (regulated) to shoot a particular load so that both barrels shoot to the same point of impact at a certain distance. When you start playing around with different loads you could easily find that your left and right barrels no longer shoot nice groups. U/O doubles the same, but I've read they're a bit more forgiving with their regulation.

The other big issue is why? The factory balistics will do everything the 9.3 in a double was designed for. And once you start increasing preasures, you're risking your expensive investment. Doubles are not designed to set the world on fire with their sizling performance. What they do do is give you the fastest 2nd shot available - perfect for driven game at moderate ranges. If I handloaded for this cartridge, it would only be for reasons of cost.

I don't want to come off sounding like the big expert. As I've said I'm not a double man, and don't own any (yet!). But I think I've distilled what I've lernt from a couple of years reading about them, both from books and from this and other forums.

Best of luck,
-Stu

stu,

...you are quite correct in your response (from my own understanding of the matter), and i should indeed be willing to take the medicine i have proffered to others (see below attached e-mail response that i posted on another chatboard site wherein i highly touted the 9,3x74r over the 375 flanged and hh)...

...however, given the poor state-side understanding and experience with the effectiveness of the 9,3 cartridge, as well as the current fascination with overwhelming power, i can't help but to wonder whether one would be able to cram more powder into the 9,3 case by seating the bullet farther out (as remington sometimes does with its premium cartridges) to increase the v and me of the 9,3 to 375hh levels...

...but, as you rightfully pointed out, there is the issue of regulation and the avoidance of excessive pressures for some thing that for all intents and purposes is perfectly suitable for nearly every hunting situation...

...cheers...

te


* * * * * * *

PREVIOUS POST

...i posted the below attached message on another chat board that may somewhat answer your question on whether to select a double in 9,3x74r or 375 flanged...

...as you may note, the norma ballistics charts show that the 9,3 may be superior to both the 375 flanged and the 375hh rounds in factory loadings at distances beyond 100 yards...

...of course those with extensive hunting experience may provide further insight on the actual field results of the various cartridges...

...if you go to www.norma.cc you will find a graphical ballistics chart that visually plots the trajectory, v and me of various cartridges that norma manufactures...

...for comparison purposes, and since my focus was on pre-regulated double rifles, i assumed the use of standard factory ammunition with bullets that i would actual use on a hunt (9,3 with 285 grain orxy; 375 with 300 grain barnes solid)...

...at 100 yards, the norma chart indicates the following results: 9,3/375 v = 2110fps vs. 2054fps; me = 2820flbs vs. 2812flbs...also, the 9,3 trajectory is flatter than both the 375 flanged and the 375hh...

...i am sure that a hand-loaded 375hh round in a bolt action single would easily surpass the 9,3 in all relevant criteria...however, for my purposes, and given my preference for doubles, the 9,3 appears more than satisfactory for my requirements state-side and abroad...i also note that featured phs in the african hunter magazine (e.g., ganyana) favor the similar 9,3x62 for all species of game, dangerous included...

...i suppose this is what makes our sport uniquely delightful, the ability to consciously choose a personalized 'tool' for your hunting quest in terms of action, barreling, calibre, bullet, etc...i also suppose there are no right answers, but given my distain for my bulkier, heavier bolt/falling block actions (416 rigby/458win.mag.), the 9,3 seems to suit me well at this point, and to be sufficiently adequate for my hunting needs...

...te...

Ballistics makes for some interesting reading, doesn't it?

Hi
In my moose hunting team there are two 375HH and one .458 Win. The rest out of 16 members are two 6,5 x 55 one 8 x 57 and the rest is 308/30-06.

The 9,3x62 and 9,3x57 have always been popular as Moose calibers. In recent years the popularity of the 9,3 X 62/74r have risen significantly due to the increasing nubers of wild boar.

In Sweden it is quite common to reload, you will always find one or two i almost all hunting teams that reload.

Also the 45-70 have seen a big jump (from a low level) in popularity. Mainly used in Marlin GG as gun for the moose dog owner and for seeking out wounded boar.

Br/